Author Topic: WW2OL Revisited  (Read 5914 times)

Offline Kieran

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WW2OL Revisited
« Reply #405 on: September 27, 2002, 12:51:57 PM »
If you do find yourself in a fight over a contested town in WWIIOL, you will definitely see planes disappear from 100 yards in front of you. This is so well-known pilots use this trick to shake off enemies on their dead six. Get in trouble? Dive over busy city, pull a quick loop, voila! You are now on dead six of enemy as he exits town. Infuriating to say the least that bias of ground troops 2K below is prioritized over the enemy 100 yards in front of you.

Offline Wotan

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« Reply #406 on: September 27, 2002, 12:57:35 PM »
Nifty in frame 4 of bigweek when we hit that bomber stream I can count on film 55 dots. You ,Urchin and starbird are on my  2 o'clock, leitwolf and erlkonig are on my 11, Drago is at my lo 12 and a crap load off bombers with massive 88 puffs. I dont know if I have hit more then 64 but I know theres no 32 limit in AH. Ah has had some connection issues and ctds with the last update but they get fixed quickly and dont drag on indefinately. The SEA had some real problems connection wise but it has been fixed.

Some folks get a lag when in huge melees like this and there certainly is a some warping but I have experienced the same thing as you have with the vanishing enemy right at your 12 in wwiiol.

They may tout a 64 limit but it needs work. Especially if ground units are rendered before enemy air units.

I suspect that hard and fishu are going to say they have never seen or heard of this happening and that we dont know how to set our machines up etc.......

Offline hardcase

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« Reply #407 on: September 27, 2002, 01:18:40 PM »
I have em disappear too. I really hate it when I am gunning an AA. It isnt working correctly. Seems worse for flying than when I ground.

btw.. that review woulda been flawless

hardcase:D

Offline Jekyll

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WW2OL Revisited
« Reply #408 on: September 28, 2002, 02:23:27 AM »
Err Keiran... so NOW you're saying that its the bugs that made you leave?

QUOTE:  "I believe I will stick it out this time, at least for the summer while I have the time."

SO, I understand the above to mean that you NEVER intended continuing with WW2OL past the summer in any case.  

You leave, and now suddenly its because of all these big bad bugs?

Still trying to ingratiate yourself I see ;)

Oh, and for Oedipus and Mighty1 ... I never intended to imply that ALL posters on the AH BBS were like Creamo and Braz.  This board is replete with intelligent, interesting threads, occasionally salted with the ravings of idiots .........

like ANY other BBS around.

But bearing in mind that the subject of the appeal has just died from his disease, I found some of the responses to the thread to be not only in bad taste, but completely at odds with EVERYTHING I ever thought these boards were supposed to represent .....

a community .... irrespective of whether we play AH, WB, IL2 or whatever.

I gotta admit I'm upset over Carrot's passing ... flew with him MANY times in WB, AH and WW2OL.  He was a guy that would always see the funny side of a situation, and I never knew him to badmouth ANYONE either in the air or on the boards.

He's dead, and Creamo and Braz are still walking around .........

There ain't no justice in the world :(
« Last Edit: September 28, 2002, 03:29:04 AM by Jekyll »

Offline Hussein

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« Reply #409 on: September 28, 2002, 03:42:08 AM »
I think the whole term 'vaporware' was first introduced with WW2OL release. :cool:

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #410 on: September 28, 2002, 10:57:34 AM »
No, Jekyll, not correct at all.

I went there trying to have an open mind. I flew for a while, ignoring things I saw. One thing that did improve to some extent was the community. As HC himself has alluded, the board itself on the original release was an intolerable, continuous flame war. This was the source of my first remark upon retrying it, and was one of the reasons I decided to give the game another go. New version, different atmosphere with the inhabitants.

As for the flight model, read the thread here. I still don't have a problem with that, I feel things are relative correct there- that is, the planes perform historically correct relative to one another. Whether or not they are the most accurate as compared to other sims is not even a concern to me.

The pilot quality there is terrible, period. Sorry if that offends you, but truth is truth.

The key things that pushed me out were:

1. The staleness of the game- it'd been a year, and basically the same weapons (in air) day in and day out.

2. The inequality of the relative air forces was ahistorically balanced too far to one side, making neither side particularly fun to play. It was far too easy to be an Axis flyer, far too difficult to be an Allied flyer. This was mainly due to...

3. A damage model that was incomplete or broken. Rifle caliber weapons on the Allied side did too little damage to one particular plane- the 109. Tests proved the 109 could absorb tons of ammo and continue to fly. You see, the way the damage model works is thus; if the first round to strike doesn't have the energy to penetrate a surface, it's as though the round never happened. So, if 1,000 rounds hits the same spot, one after another, it's as if nothing hit the plane. See? No cumulative damage. Couple superior performance with what is in effect a bullet-proof covering, and you have an unbalancing abomination running loose in the game.

4. Complete and total lack of hope that CRS would do anything about it any day soon. Once it became clear that A) CRS didn't think this was a problem and B) CRS didn't have a plane being designed (at that moment) that at least carried cannon (D.520 or Ms.406), I knew the game would continue to be a one-plane sim.

5. Throw in the FB issue. FBs, a key component to the game, were made destroyable by the air. Guess which plane does this better? The Stuka, of course, as it should be for pinpoint targets. The Blenheim could do it, but it required far more skill than the average pilot possessed and was far more vulnerable to enemy fighters. A Blen IV caught by enemy fighters, even if escorted, was dead. Even this isn't bad, or even ahistorical, except... FBs were a figment of the CRS imagination to begin with, a game concession. It occurs to me that if you are going to make a game concession you do so with both sides of the game in mind, not heavily weighted in favor of only one side. This type of decision, played over and over by CRS, is just poor game design.

So Jekyll... which of these issues did I mistake? Which is untrue? Which of these invalidates any private conversation that we had? Why is it not possible a person can change his mind based on these observations? And... did you not read any of the BBS there, and any of my discussion on these points? I was pretty blunt there, not trying to "ingratiate" myself as you accuse. It was a crappy situation and I said so, and as you might guess I was not very popular, particularly with the Pro-LW crowd (who BTW are very pleased with the current situation).

One thing hasn't changed with CRS, and perhaps I can paint it this way- they can't seem to grasp what good gameplay is. This is my opinion. If you have a game where the map is reset over and over, and the score is something like 15/2 in resets, it ought to be an indication something is a bit askew. You can't keep asking a group of people to take it up the butt over and over, and you certainly don't start making comments (as CRS has) that perhaps the losing side just didn't have smart enough players playing. That's a pretty insulting indictment, and one made more than once by Killer and Docdoom.

Offline hardcase

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« Reply #411 on: September 28, 2002, 12:47:24 PM »
1. Stuff is added. New Bofors and its tow this release. Some scout cars for both sides are almost ready, but the new release wont be held up for them. I suspect the same plane set, with additions, will still be in blitzkreig in years to come.

1040, the Germans have a real air advantage. I fly allies to try and balance it some. The 109 is superior to the hurri, hurri does nicely against the 110, Spits are stationed in england and are a long flight to the fight. Most won't take one. I would like the spit closer to the fight to overcome the 109s strengths. Much like Bob, spits vs 109, hurri vs 110 111 and stuka.

The titanium control surfaces of the 109 are fixed this release. AC damage can be subjective, but a bug was found.

FB destruction is always in flux. CRS changed the FB hardness this release also. I will have to look it up. The allied AF has improved in its ability to destroy FB with Blens, or sappers in truck.
The Dive bomber is well suited for doing this, the blen has to be worked at but for right now, the Stuka is the king of ground pounding. It has low numbers on the attrit list now. We can kill em enought to drive em from the air. We adapt.

Yep, FB are a gameplay creation. How much would complain about NOT having em:)


Gameplay is always in flux, and the community has driven things. Some want personal spawn limits. for example. If someone had done this before perhaps gameplay would be a no brainer. Post some ideas how to improve it and I will post em on the forum.

Blitzkrieg itself was askewed. Perhaps that is why the French surrendered early on. Our French have won.  Interesting you use an example of a game perhaps bf42, with 15/2 scores and resets every 5 mins to compare and fault the gameplay for ww2ol. I believe that to be apples and oranges. I dont think any 'game' out there can be held out as an example to fix ww2ol's gameplay. Different birds. Apples and Oranges.

I hope this didnt come off as a Fanbois rant:D It was not my intent.

The Rats are going to make a small in game memorial to Carrot and retire his ID. I want to thank you guys who posted about carrot. Life should supersede a game.

hardcase

Offline Wotan

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« Reply #412 on: September 28, 2002, 01:42:39 PM »
Quote
Gameplay is always in flux,


This quest for parity is what I find to be the main reason I most likely will never enjoy wwiiol.

I feel quite the opposite then kieran. I certainly dont expect a scripted german victory every reset. But the allies (in the quest for gameplay) already have an advantage beyond simple vehicle modifications.

303s were crap kieran read Faminz interview with alan peart

Quote
9. I would like his experiences concerning armament, the 20 Hispanos and the .303 mgs. Which did he prefer?

A: .303's were useless really when armour protection was installed for pilots. The bullets would not penetrate the armour plate. On one occasion I fired from astern at an ME 109 using only machine guns (my cannons had jammed), and I could see the bullets ricocheting off. I could only claim him as damaged. The cannons on the other hand did great damage when they hit, but were limited in ammunition supply. Also initially in North Africa stoppages were common causing much frustration. This problem was duly overcome and the Hispano Suiza cannon became an effective and reliable weapon. Later two .5's replaced the four .303's in the UK, and I think that this was an improvement.


I can fill this tread up with numerous stories about 303 armed planes struggling to get kills. Emptying all their 303s into a ju88 etc....

But the rats modelled an e-4 with mgff/m for the battle of france.  Play il2 rarely do you see control surface shot off by planes. Eng damage and pks are far more real then shooting off control surfaces.

Quote
On one occasion during the invasion of France in the summer of 1940, Wick and three other Messerschmitt pilots found themselves bounced by 30 French Curtiss Hawk 75-fighters. In the following battle, the Germans succeeded in turning the table. Five Curtiss Hawks were shot down, four of them falling prey to the guns of Wick's Bf 109


On the ground the french tanks where 1 man had to load target and fire isnt accounted for. so french tanks have an unrealistic advantage here. When I played a while back I remember my 88 having to hit a char countless time to kill him.

Theres all sorts of points where the rats modeled something wrong here so they over compensate here to make a greater level of parity.

The mobility of the german ground forces are off set by town/flag capture etc.......

The ju-86 was a bomber used in Bof so was the do 17. They model the wrong variants, dont model others and over compensate here and there. Theres nothing historical or immersive in the way wwiiol is played.

When I talk about gameplay this is what I am talking about.

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #413 on: September 28, 2002, 02:17:33 PM »
I don't want absolute parity, that would be silly. What I want is something that is historic. If you can roll a tank up to a real 109 and unload your turret mg at 50 meters into the aileron, then have the pilot lift that bird off as if nothing happened, I would be absolutely silent. Unload 4 more clips while you're at it- that is what the testers did. I don't doubt your anecdote about seeing SOME bullets ricochet, but I seriously doubt they ALL did. There is a reason later warbirds carried more and more cannons after all.

As for the FB, that has been addressed in the latest version about to come out, I know, by allowing the Blens to eject their payloads at a diving angle. This is not historic and may not be the best solution, but I can't think of a better one, either.

The FB issue is a tough nut because they are a game-concession contrivance put in place to shorten the distances to fights. That is a good idea, unless one side is unduly advantaged in the process. In the past this was so, mainly because of the advantages conferred by a pinpoint divebomber such as the Stuka (and the lack of an historical Allied equivalent). Making the FBs killable by sappers only would be fair, but remove a fair reason for bombers in the game. I think the real answer lies in increasing the actual usable view distance so that FBs could be spotted from the air at altitudes that would allow Blenheims and Heinkels to see them and line up bombing runs. Right now it is guesswork, because above 1-2K FBs are invisible on most rigs. The suggestion I forwarded (along with Turo and a few others) was to make FBs larger- after all, they are supposed to replicate an encamped army. Make it so it would take multiple bombers to kill them and you don't hurt the Stukas at all, but you give the level bombers something to carpet bomb at an altitude that is more realistic. This would have the added effect of raising the altitude of the fights to more historic levels. See, win/win for everyone involved.

I am not making comparisons to BF1942 here, don't confuse this line of discussion, please.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2002, 02:19:36 PM by Kieran »

Offline hardcase

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« Reply #414 on: September 28, 2002, 02:38:45 PM »
FB can now be killed by sappers. We load up a bunch and go a basing:) The question being looked a lot is..how much damage does it take to kill a FB. I think that value is being lowered or has been. Killer has tought about making it capturable. I think that might be fun and worth a try. He also wantsto have a spawn point that is captured in a multipul spawn point town, to be able to spawn enemy infantry. A bug one night lead to the best fight I have been in ever. Germans could spawn in a capped point across the river from the other.  The blens can kill them now, I dont know if one plane load can do it. Bigger FB bases, or at least more than the tank or the inf points to bomb, would be welcomed I would think. That is a big rewrite for the graphic guys. It would tie into making em capable. They would have to be easier to take than a city point, or we would jsut be having another city pop up between cities.

The pilot dumping bombs..not sure it means they go armed or not. That 40% angle, I believe the rats got some old info from ww2. I dont know for certain.

Again, the 109 titanium surfaces are fixed. Some extended gameing will tell.

I would like graphical damage as much as anyone. With the new dx8.1 engine perhaps it can show up. Losing a wing is stil there just not shown.

hardcase

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #415 on: September 28, 2002, 02:56:21 PM »
The jettisonable bombs just have to go live- why else take the time to code it in?

Offline hardcase

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« Reply #416 on: September 28, 2002, 03:05:30 PM »
My only thought would be to dump the weight. I havent flown one in beta, but will do so tonight and see for myself.

hardcase

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #417 on: September 28, 2002, 03:06:42 PM »
Please god, let this thread burn in nuclear hellfire.

Offline hardcase

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« Reply #418 on: September 28, 2002, 03:33:07 PM »

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #419 on: September 28, 2002, 03:41:16 PM »
Please god, let hardcase find a friend.