TROUBLE w/109 vs. 190

[SpinDoc1]

The other day I was running from a 109 G-10 in my 190 D9, and I couldn't believe the guy was catching me. He didn't dive, he took off from the airfield and was chasing me from a DISadvantage. He wasn't gaining quickly, but was in range where I didn't want to turn. 109 had me in the vertical, had me in the speed. What could I do? I tried vertical and horizontal scissors, barrel rolls, and even when he overshot I couldn't pull up into him within firing range. I just didn't have it! Any advice for how to avoid this? And why should a 109 be able to outdo my 190? Thanks inadvance!

Jason

[Furious]

Look at the AH charts.

At just about every altitude over 2,000 ft or so the g10 is faster.


Use a high speed flat scissors where you can easily out roll him to get him to overhshoot and off your six, then break into him for all you are worth and cling to his six until he goes vertical.  If he does, Immelman under him and run 180 degrees out in a slow climb



F.

[Virage]

190d advantages over g10:  e/ speed retention, top speed under ~2k, roll rate.

190d is faster than 109g10 under 2k... what alt was the deck u fought over?

if low speed scissors move didnt work.. get a ho pass (take shot or not) and extend when flight paths r in opposite directions.

190d holds speed better than 190g10.. u may be able to get to friendlys in time or to extend and reverse.

Another option is to get speed over 350 and do a high speed scissors to shake him.  109g10 can't roll with 190d at speed and will lose speed trying to use rudder to help w/roll.

[SpinDoc1]

Thanks for the advice so far guys! How do you make the 109 a real slow dogfighter though? I thought it was great at dropping flaps and outscissoring the opposition? I can't seem to get it right though, I either stall out of the sky or the other guy pulls a huge vertical and I have no energy to catch him. Any advice here?

Jason

[Virage]

You MAY be able to catch a slow reacting or inexperienced pilot in a scissors and get the kill.  Safest bet is to scissor for  the head on  and escape and start working on getting an E advantage.

In the specific instance you bring up.. If you don't have the E to follow the 109 up(check ur speed and his rate of seperation) .. immediately dive (preferably 180 degrees away) to develop seperation and speed.  you may be able to escape or at  least regain E to turn back into him once he starts back down on u.

With a 109 closing on ur six.. best bet is to use the scissors to escape not press the attack.  sounds like you are pushing ur luck by not taking the out his overshoot provides u.

[Gryffin]

I have been flying both a bit this tour, and I have decided that the 190d9 is a much better aircraft. Some things I have noticed:

- The G10 seems to have a slightly higher corner speed. I seem to be on the stall buzzer a lot more in the G10 compared to the 190. To me this means that if the fight gets slow the 190 will have a better instantaneous turn rate.

- The G10 would have to be one of the crappiest planes in the game above 400 mph indicated. It compresses badly, can hardly pull any g at all, and is even worse in roll. The 190 has excellent roll and instantaneous turn ability up to much higher speeds. if you have any space below you to dive and get the fight up to these speeds, you will have a major advantage over the G10.

- The 190 will outroll the 109 at any speed. Using this should make it impossible for the G10 to get any kind of tracking shot.

- The 190 is much better armed, with an extra 20mm cannon, but the 109 has a much better view over the nose. However I find that if I save the "Num-8" view to be with the pilot's head as high and as far forward as it can go, and hit this as I start shooting, I can see the tracers all the way to the target at even fairly high G levels. My first week in the 190 I got hardly any kills, because I couldn't see what I was shooting at, but since I have gotten used to using this view, my kill rate has gone up quite a bit.

- If you get bounced by a G10 and you have altitude below you, try and dive to get your speed up to around 450mph indicated. If you see that he has broken off you are safe. If you see that he is gaining (i.e. his speed is at least 450 as well) then immediately zoom then reverse. His controls will be compressed and there is no way he can follow.

- If you main goal is to survive, the G10 may be a better plane ... it can escape a lot of situations that the 190 can't. With its speed and climb it can stay out of reach of just about anything in the game. Just watch the fuel, it only has about 25 mins with full throttle, a lot less in WEP.

- Both planes get 10 minutes of WEP time, so long fights against other aircraft should see you end up with an advantage when they run out of WEP.

In the situation you have described, you should be able to escape at sea level, since the 190 is slightly faster at very low altitudes. If this is not a possibility then I would use the excellent roll rate to go for an angular gain while trying to hold equal energy levels. Just keep in mind that while he is slower than you, he will have a smaller turn radius, so nose to tail turns might be preferrable. I am assuming from what you wrote that he is faster than you though, since he was catching you. If you go for an energy fight against a good pilot you will possibly lose, since the G10 can climb a lot better.

The main thing to realise, however, is that although this may sound impressive, I should also point out that at any given time there is a real possibility that I have no clue what I am talking about

[SpinDoc1]

From what I've heard, German fighter pilots usually preferred the 190 as it was the premier sports car in the skies. I know the roll rate is far superior to most planes in the game, in fact it may be the very best, but it is slower, has limited elevator authority without stalling, and can't turnfight worth a crap! So why would I choose the 190 over the 109 when the latter does all these things better with the exception of roll rate? It seems to me that in a 190 I will spend most of my time diving and running to get the 109's or spits to compress, where I will sooner or later end up on the deck with nowhere lower to go!

Jason

[J_A_B]

"So why would I choose the 190 over the 109 when the latter does all these things better with the exception of roll rate? "

Two reasons:

First, WW2 combat wasn't about 1 vs 1, but many vs many.  In such a situation, speed, dive controllability, firepower/ammo load and cockpit visibility are the most important features a fighter can have--ALL of which favor the 190 over the 109.  

In a hypothetical 1 vs 1 setup the 109 is indeed a better airplane.  It is also IMO a generally better interceptor thanks to its better climbrate (remember to take the gondolas or 30mm against buffs though).  

Second, several of the features of the 190 which made it popular aren't apparent in AH.  Wide-track landing gear, easy engine management, larger cockpit, lighter control forces and such benefits either don't matter much in AH or aren't modeled at all.


What it all amounts to, is what we do in AH isn't the same as what they did in WW2.  

J_A_B

[Urchin]

The 190D9 is a superior plane for the 'MA' environment in my opinion.  The high speed handling and heavier firepower make it superior to the 109G-10 for 'BnZ' type fighting, or E-fighting.  Plus, it dives better and holds onto the extra speed gained in a dive longer.  

The 109G-10 is a great plane for 1v1 fighting.  It turns just about as well as a P-51D.  It has an acceleration and climb rate advantage over the 190D-9 (and P-51D), and it is faster at all altitudes higher than 2k (I think).  That said, the tendency for the 109 to 'lock up' at higher speeds means you won't be using it as a BnZ fighter (or if you do, that you won't be hitting much).  A good 109 pilot uses his climb rate and acceleration advantages to get into a position where he can 'latch on' to his opponents tail, and then he switches to traditional 'angles' or turn-fighting.  In an environment like the MA, it is generally a bit to crowded to do this safely.  As you bleed off speed and energy to get yourself slowed down to the point where you can stay behind your opponent and wear him down with angles, his 4 or 5 buddies are latching onto YOUR 6.

For this reason, I prefer the 190 when I'm out hunting 'solo' (or in a group where I don't know any of the other friendlies) and the 109 when I know I can count on people to clear my 6.

In a 190 vs 109 fight, the 109 should win 95% of the time, at least in a 1v1.