Author Topic: Fighting that D*mn N1k...  (Read 701 times)

Offline Kweassa

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Fighting that D*mn N1k...
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2002, 12:45:41 PM »
Holy smokes.

 I tried myself what bozon said so, and compared it with other planes with the same method.

 How in the world does the N1K2 do this?? Is it supposed to be that way? Even the better 'prop hangars' couldn't do that. The Yak-9U would keep wobble side to side because of the torque, and so would planes like the 109s. How does this baby hold on its speed at 80~100 mph at that AoA like that, without wobbling from the torque??

Offline SpinDoc1

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« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2002, 01:28:52 PM »
Kweassa,

I myself performed and recorded this experiment all the way to 13k feet and then proceeded to dive back on the drone planes in offline play. I blew up a few and called it a day. I was thinking of emailing the vid to HT because quite frankly I don't understand it either. But I just don't have any real proof that it should be changed. Anyone else have any advice?

Jason
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Offline funkedup

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Fighting that D*mn N1k...
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2002, 05:35:06 AM »
3000 fpm at 80 mph is a 25 degree climb FWIW.

Offline GRDuckett

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« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2002, 11:53:00 AM »
AKAK, are you using dual throttles for that hammerhead type prop hang?

  Can a 110 pull  this type of manuver?  I have tried this in the past  and always end up flopping over and finding myself not really in control of the aircraft.  Any suggestions?

  Thx... Duck

Offline SpinDoc1

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« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2002, 12:37:02 PM »
The advantage for the P-38 is counter-rotating props. Whereas the 110 has props turning in the same direction. When the P38 enters a purely vertical stall it will flop in a uni-axial (one plane, vertical, not horizontal) manner and point to the ground. The 110 however will have torque effects acting upon it and unless you vary the throttles with some significant care, you will get a very violent stall and have a longer recovery time.

Jason
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Offline Widewing

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Fighting that D*mn N1k...
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2002, 02:48:05 PM »
First and foremost, work on your SA. Absolutely nothing is more important than keen situational awareness. Secondly, stay off the deck. N1K2s are pigs, but pigs that dive well and retain energy well. Getting caught low is a surefire precursor to big trouble.

Tactics are determined by the type of aircraft you fly. For example, if you fly a P-51D, you would use energy tactics exclusively. If you are flying a Spitfire, you can use both energy and angles tactics.

In any engagement, your chances of success are dependent upon three factors. Altitude, speed and stealth. Ideally, you would want to have all three. However, any combination of two is adequate. Possessing only one factor marginalizes your chances to emerge victorious. Having none is grounds for avoiding the enemy altogether (I am not considering ACM skills whatsoever).

There is a fourth factor, shock. Shock results from you doing something completely unexpected. A typical example of this is using the SBD dive bomber as a fighter, bouncing enemy fighters from high altitude. This is always unexpected and can cause momentary hesitation while the enemy pilot digests his bizarre situation. Frequently, that hesitation is the opportunity you will need to gain the victory.

Since we are talking normal encounters, we will omit shock as a viable factor.

Using energy tactics against the N1K2 takes patience. Should he see you coming, it is not difficult to break-turn out of the line of fire. However, each time he turns, he cuts into his airspeed. Do not extend so far out that the enemy pilot has time to regain his speed. Keep the pressure on, but mind your own energy as well, being careful not to squander your initial advantage(s). Break down the energy state of the N1K2, by forcing him to turn frequently. Once his speed drops below 200 mph, he’s in serious trouble. Why, you ask? Because, although low speed turns result in small turning circles, those same tight turns change the enemy’s aspect to you very little. In other words, he cannot gain enough lateral displacement to avoid your guns. At this point getting the kill depends on your deflection shooting skills more than any other factor.

Should you be flying a good, but slow turn fighter such as the FM-2, you will not be able to sustain energy tactics for very long. However, you should have little trouble working your way onto this 6 O’clock. Once on his 6, use lag pursuit and wait for an opportunity. Should the N1K2 begin to scissor, you have two options. Scissor with him, or do what I do, pull off power and wait until he crosses in front of you. Take a snap shot, but then immediately assume a lag pursuit again. There is almost nothing that the N1K2 can do to escape, short of an error on your part.

Finally, it is essential that you know the capabilities and limitation of the aircraft you are flying. Without this basic knowledge, you cannot adequately determine the ideal tactics to be employed.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline bozon

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« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2002, 06:39:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by funkedup
3000 fpm at 80 mph is a 25 degree climb FWIW.

yes, but where is the nose pointed while doing this is the really interesting thing.

Bozon
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Offline SpinDoc1

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Fighting that D*mn N1k...
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2002, 12:39:37 AM »
Widewing, thanks so much for the great advice. I blasted an N1k2 with my P47 earlier today, only to get wasted by an nme P47 and P51 combo! What can I say, I had a bad day today in AH... I will try some of the energy tactics described against the N1k soon, and I'll report back as to how I did!

Jason
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Offline akak

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Fighting that D*mn N1k...
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2002, 03:53:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRDuckett
AKAK, are you using dual throttles for that hammerhead type prop hang?

  Can a 110 pull  this type of manuver?  I have tried this in the past  and always end up flopping over and finding myself not really in control of the aircraft.  Any suggestions?

  Thx... Duck



The 38 Prop Hang film was made by Leviathn and as for as I know, he just uses a Pro Throttle like myself.  I *do* on occasions use my dual Suncom throttle but that's only if I can get it to stop spiking enough to use it.

ack-ack

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2002, 12:19:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DaLadyzMon
Widewing, thanks so much for the great advice. I blasted an N1k2 with my P47 earlier today, only to get wasted by an nme P47 and P51 combo! What can I say, I had a bad day today in AH... I will try some of the energy tactics described against the N1k soon, and I'll report back as to how I did!

Jason


Stick to it Jason, practice will greatly improve your skills. Moreover, nothing will make you a better pilot faster than good SA. Never being surprised by the enemy should be everyone's SA goal. We all hear guys who suddenly exclaim, "something just killed me!" The fact that they don't know what killed them is a significant indicator of their SA. You knew what killed you, and that's a good step forward. The next step is to get to the point that you can determine the immediate AND future threats, which will greatly aid you in avoiding gangbangs.

Keep up the good work!

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Wilbus

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Fighting that D*mn N1k...
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2002, 06:17:54 AM »
Last time I flew one I went straight up after a faster P51. When he stalled out a few hundred yards above me I was doing 40mph straight up, and in that speed I could still aim, and killed him.

Like Bozon said, it's a chopper, even in vertical engagements it's a chopper.
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

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Offline H. Godwineson

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« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2002, 10:25:27 AM »
In reality, the N1k shouldn't be able to do that.  It's initial climb is 4000fpm, slightly better than the F6F.  With an operational weight of about 8500 pounds, the N1K should lose energy a little faster than the Spit IX.  Once the nose is pointed above 45 degrees, and speed has dropped below 100mph, it should start to wobble from engine torque as it approaches the stall.  At a steep  vertical attitude such as this, it should stall out as speed approaches 70 mph.  If it doesn't, there is something wrong with the fm.  

Regards, Shuckins

Offline Wilbus

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« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2002, 10:44:06 AM »
Almost no plane in AH is affected by Tourqe, specially not the Niki.

190's and 109's require quite much trimming all the time when you change speed. 190 didn't need it in R/L.

Spit 14 has noticable tourqe when you stall out when going straight up, can put you into a flat spin if not carefull.
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline Innominate

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Fighting that D*mn N1k...
« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2002, 10:58:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wilbus
Almost no plane in AH is affected by Tourqe, specially not the Niki.

190's and 109's require quite much trimming all the time when you change speed. 190 didn't need it in R/L.

Spit 14 has noticable tourqe when you stall out when going straight up, can put you into a flat spin if not carefull.


Don't forget the F4U's.

Why does it seem like planes with engine torque are the exception?

Offline Wilbus

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« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2002, 11:03:14 AM »
The F4u doesn't have much tourqe at all IMO, only a bit tricky to take off and land with. Not much trimming needed.

Maybe what you ment...
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.