Author Topic: Wep and cooling.......  (Read 2258 times)

Offline Glasses

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Wep and cooling.......
« Reply #150 on: October 18, 2002, 09:17:06 PM »
High Alt Medium Range fighter,a  stop gap for the Ta 152.

Offline HoHun

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Wep and cooling.......
« Reply #151 on: October 19, 2002, 04:53:50 AM »
Hi Hazed,

>but without HT defineing for us how they made their guesstimates we will never be in the position to question how the wep system works.

I think HTC's definition of WEP times is meant to match the standard operation procedures from the manuals.

5 min of WEP is a typical value for "dry" WEP, i. e. without any injection system. You can find this value in the USAAF's P-51D manual, for example.

10 min is a typical value for "wet" WEP (called "special emergency power" in German terminology), i. e. using methanol-water or nitrous oxide injection. This is the value for the German Jumo 213A engine, for example.

However, some engines are rated differently. The FM-2 with water injection for example is rated for only 5 min of WEP. The Ta 152H-0 on the other hand is rated for a full 30 min of WEP despite not having any injection system. As an extreme example, the La-5 could only employ WEP at low altitudes and for 3 min due to problems with the cooling system.

HTC's cool-down times appear more or less random to me. The lion's share of the heat generated in the engine leaves through the exhaust, not through the cooling system, and the main benefit of MW50 is to increase this kind of heat transfer. (In fact, in German the MW50 system is often referred to as "internal cooling").

In short, an engine running under MW50 does not get any hotter than an engine running at dry WEP. After all, WEP is limited by the internal temperature of the engine.

In other words, while the WEP burst duration can vary considerably, it's reasonable to assume as a first approximation that all engines come back to normal operating temperatures in the same (short) period of time.

The Fw 190D-9 is the only aircraft for which I found a precise value given. It's 5 min and not 20 min like in Aces High.

In fact, for the simplistic way Aces High models cooling, I'd consider it a good idea to set the cool-down time for all aircraft to an equal 5 min.

The data you posted doesn't make too much sense:

>190d9 10 mins wep 20 mins cooling

Should be 10 min WEP, 5 min cooling according to hard data.

>109g2 10 mins wep 10 mins cooling

The Me 109G-2 didn't have MW50, so it should be 5 min WEP.

>109g10 10 mins wep 10 mins cooling

The Me 109G-10 had MW50, but why does it cool quicker than the Fw 190D-9? It shoudl be 10 min WEP, 5 min cooling too.

>P51d 5 mins wep 10 mins cooling

5 min WEP is in accordance with the USAAF manual.

>HurIIC 5 mins wep 15 mins cooling
>SpitIX 5 mins wep 15 mins cooling

Two more Merlin-engined aircraft, but they take 50% longer to cool down than the P-51D. I have no idea why. (And with a 1:3 ratio, they're hit even harder by the slow cool-down than the Fw 190D-9!)

5 min cooling for every aircraft and the WEP duration from the manual would appear as a consistent and realistic way to employ the current WEP timing system. The Fw 190D-9 is the first to catch the eye due to the very long cooling time, but in fact most other aircraft would benefit from an improvement as well.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Wilbus

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« Reply #152 on: October 19, 2002, 06:27:40 AM »
Quote
what was the fw190 d9 designed for?


High altitude medium range P51 killer :D
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline hitech

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Wep and cooling.......
« Reply #153 on: October 19, 2002, 08:34:09 AM »
HoHun, Good post.

HiTech

Offline Wilbus

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« Reply #154 on: October 19, 2002, 09:59:41 AM »
...
« Last Edit: October 19, 2002, 01:50:13 PM by Wilbus »
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline hazed-

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Wep and cooling.......
« Reply #155 on: October 19, 2002, 11:28:18 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by HoHun
Hi Hazed,

>but without HT defineing for us how they made their guesstimates we will never be in the position to question how the wep system works.

I think HTC's definition of WEP times is meant to match the standard operation procedures from the manuals.

5 min of WEP is a typical value for "dry" WEP, i. e. without any injection system. You can find this value in the USAAF's P-51D manual, for example.

10 min is a typical value for "wet" WEP (called "special emergency power" in German terminology), i. e. using methanol-water or nitrous oxide injection. This is the value for the German Jumo 213A engine, for example.

However, some engines are rated differently. The FM-2 with water injection for example is rated for only 5 min of WEP. The Ta 152H-0 on the other hand is rated for a full 30 min of WEP despite not having any injection system. As an extreme example, the La-5 could only employ WEP at low altitudes and for 3 min due to problems with the cooling system.

HTC's cool-down times appear more or less random to me. The lion's share of the heat generated in the engine leaves through the exhaust, not through the cooling system, and the main benefit of MW50 is to increase this kind of heat transfer. (In fact, in German the MW50 system is often referred to as "internal cooling").

In short, an engine running under MW50 does not get any hotter than an engine running at dry WEP. After all, WEP is limited by the internal temperature of the engine.

In other words, while the WEP burst duration can vary considerably, it's reasonable to assume as a first approximation that all engines come back to normal operating temperatures in the same (short) period of time.

The Fw 190D-9 is the only aircraft for which I found a precise value given. It's 5 min and not 20 min like in Aces High.

In fact, for the simplistic way Aces High models cooling, I'd consider it a good idea to set the cool-down time for all aircraft to an equal 5 min.

The data you posted doesn't make too much sense:

>190d9 10 mins wep 20 mins cooling

Should be 10 min WEP, 5 min cooling according to hard data.

>109g2 10 mins wep 10 mins cooling

The Me 109G-2 didn't have MW50, so it should be 5 min WEP.

>109g10 10 mins wep 10 mins cooling

The Me 109G-10 had MW50, but why does it cool quicker than the Fw 190D-9? It shoudl be 10 min WEP, 5 min cooling too.

>P51d 5 mins wep 10 mins cooling

5 min WEP is in accordance with the USAAF manual.

>HurIIC 5 mins wep 15 mins cooling
>SpitIX 5 mins wep 15 mins cooling

Two more Merlin-engined aircraft, but they take 50% longer to cool down than the P-51D. I have no idea why. (And with a 1:3 ratio, they're hit even harder by the slow cool-down than the Fw 190D-9!)

5 min cooling for every aircraft and the WEP duration from the manual would appear as a consistent and realistic way to employ the current WEP timing system. The Fw 190D-9 is the first to catch the eye due to the very long cooling time, but in fact most other aircraft would benefit from an improvement as well.




Regards,

Henning (HoHun)



well this is precisely my thinking also ho hun, the way the cooling times  are in AH makes little sense.the wep set to the same as the manuals is what i was hoping it was but I dont have access to manuals for all aircraft so i couldnt check.I had to assume it was a figure arrived at that took into account all the different cooling and wep aids on all the aircraft that made HT arrive at the 5/10 mins .

The only thing id add about cooling is maybe it would be acceptable to have air cooling taking a touch longer than liquid but as you said if its mainly based on exhaust cooling then EQUAL cooling times would be acceptablle but I said I cant work out why they are all so different.

mate thanks for adding that.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2002, 11:48:16 AM by hazed- »

Offline hazed-

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Wep and cooling.......
« Reply #156 on: October 19, 2002, 11:30:41 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by hitech
HoHun, Good post.

HiTech


wtf? hitech,hes agreed the cooling times seem wrong and you say good post but blast me for saying the same thing?

my first post in this thread asked this! and i quote:

'i did 2 simple tests.First i took off in the 190d9 and applied wep.timed it, then when it overheated i timed how long it took before it was back to normal tempreture.the reason i did this is because i always find it seems to take forever for 190s to cool down. well i got 10 minutes of wep and then it took 18 minutes to cool again. I then did the same for the P51D as it is a contemporary and got 5 minutes of wep and it took 9 minutes to cool down. what is a little strange is that the tempreture for an overheat was the same. so I was confused.'

and later I clearly stated i DIDNT want wep times increased or decreased JUST wanted to know why the cooling was different!??!?! im absolutely dumbfounded by your reply here HT

I give up with this place!!
« Last Edit: October 19, 2002, 11:45:05 AM by hazed- »

Offline Krotki

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Wep and cooling.......
« Reply #157 on: October 19, 2002, 01:07:05 PM »
Just what was that big scoop that is the mainstay of the "stang", gesigned for. If remember correctly it had a dual funtion besides looks.

Krotki, United we stand
3o8th Polish Squadron