Callsign Nazis

[texter]

Originally posted by Hornet


Wrong. This is not an issue about free speech. Aces High is a private enterprise. Either you abide by their community standards or you are gone.

You are the one that seems to have a problem with free speech. Regardless of what HiTech's decision is on the handles in question, people have a right to discuss it on this board. If that discussion bothers you, don't read the thread.

I ever tell you I was and am very proud to have been your squaddy?

Consider yourself told then.

Tex
what's wizard up to?

[ET]

Brrrrrrriiinnnnng.
 ~~~~~~~~
Hi Ma.
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yeh Ma, some Earthlings have no sensativity at all. Most are O.K. though.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yeh Ma, some earthlings get real silly at times. Most of them are O.K. too.
 ~~~~~~~~~
Yeh Ma, clean underwear every day.
~~~~~
Call you again tomorrow,
~~~~~~~
Bye

[Hornet]

I ever tell you I was and am very proud to have been your squaddy?

heya Tex, consider the reverse true as well bud

Wiz is allright, still does RC flying, we keep in touch...I bug him every once and awhile to get in here. Funny to think how long ago this hobby started for us, but that's whats so cool about it. Take care man.

[Duedel]

 

[GScholz]

Originally posted by Biggles


Now, I may be wrong, but I don't think the crosses on the 109 wings are swastikas...just as the crosses on a Fokker Dr-I's wings are not swastikas.

The Bf109G2 does have (unlike the other 109's in the game) swastika like crosses, however they are not actual swastikas. They're Norse Rune crosses (blue on white) used by the Finnish (who fought the Russians and were supported by the Germans). These crosses are not swastikas and have no connection to the Nazis, however they may seem to be by the historically uneducated.

The callsign "Nazi" is of course distasteful in the extreme, because we now identify the Nazis with the likes of Hitler, Himmler and Hess. However I feel I must point out that 99.9% of all Nazis were good, hardworking people who loved their kids. National Socialism (NAtional SoZIalismus) is a political ideal just like Capitalism and Communism, not a pact with the Devil. Stalin and his bunch of goons massacred millions of ethnic Jews in Russia (almost as many as Hitler did in Europe). Does that mean that most Communists are evil? Certainly not. The Nazis are a thing of the past. Neo-Nazis on the other hand are the scum of the Earth.

The SS was a huge organization with many branches of service. The Waffen-SS was not responsible for the Holocaust. They were the armed service branch, highly trained and devoted to the Nazi cause. They were misled, corrupted and in the end sacrificed to the whims of the Evil that was Hitler-Germany. However most of them were just devoted soldiers of "The Fatherland". Those who survived the war had to live with the fact that they believed in, and fought for a regime that stood for what? Auschwitz, Buchenwald ... the list is too long to post here. Those who were responsible for the Holocaust were the SS-Allgemeine, the Political wing of the SS, and SD (Sicherheit Dienst) the Security Service. These guys were the "real" Nazis in the context represented in this thread and generally in conversations.

As you can see from my signature I chose the name of a LW pilot as my nick. Gunter Scholz survived the war, and to my knowledge is still alive. A bunch of friends and I were planning on starting a LW sqd, 7JG5, which was stationed here in my hometown during WWII. Scholz served with that sqd. I hope to honor this aerial warrior by assuming his virtual identity in this WWII simulation. Rest assured, I do not sympathize in any way with Nazism or the regime Mr. Scholz fought for, as I am sure he does not either.

[bigsky]

oh boy where do i start... well i think you guys are wasting way too much energy addressing the infuence of nazis in AH. mr. sswafen or gasjew or whatever his name is probably is not a card carrying party member but more likely your common everyday, garden variety ignorate amazinhunk. or someone who likes to instagate people into geting very upset. in that case you are falling for his roadkill. now i can understand why some people would get upset by swastikas and ss runes since they were used as symbols by evil men bent on destroying the world and everything in it they could not control. im sure, if there is a hell, hitler is there getting a big, fat pineapple shoved up his bellybutton for eternity. but my point is that these dorks love to get people upset just like the real nazis do. and on the internet you cant find out where they live and shoot there porch lights out, kill there pets, slash there tires or any of the usual prcedures done by the  unwelcoming commity of your local community to get them to move on someplace else. i have friends around spokane,WA who were there when the nazis and the satanic cults moved in and those amazinhunks soon found there houses on fire in the middle of the night with all the doors and windows screwed shut. i here it was quite motivating. and law enforcement investigation of the arsons were very slipshod.  but the problem is what do you do to run them out of the ah community? and where do you draw the line at? at sswafen or flynazi or gasjew? seems to me that german stuff doesnt have anything to do with the nazis. why cant somebody at htc nicely tell these guys to find a name that isnt in poor taste and move on. in my opinion this whole thread( my post included) is a big waste of time. i think if half the guys who posted on this thread emailed there gripes to htc they would put a stop to it. but thats my opinion. thank you for your time.

           ed (bigsky)

[Wotan]

Waffen SS atrocities

Waffen SS Combat reputation

"...They are late or fall asleep on duty. They are court-marshalled but are told they can escape punishment by volunteering for the Special Commandos. Well, these commandos...are murder commandos. When these young men realize what they are being asked to do and refuse to take part in mass murder, they are told the orders are given them as a form of punishment. Either they can obey and take that punishment or they can disobey and be shot...By such methods decent young men are turned into criminals."

SS-Obergruppenführer Georg Keppler

Heres all you need to know.

Waffen SS

[GScholz]

Well, Wotan, I don't know if your accusing the Waffen-SS or defending them, but I just want to make a few comments:

The War in the East: Savagery beyond comprehension. No quarters were asked nor given by either side. The civilians suffered greatly under both German as well as Soviet control. Many of the mass graves of civilians as well as soldiers that were blamed on the Germans, were after the fall of the Soviet Union identified as Soviet crimes. The War in the East will probably stand for all eternity as the most barbaric and horrific war ever.

The War in the West: As the article reads, war is an extremely emotional experience. War crimes were committed by both sides, but on a miniscule scale compared to those on the Eastern Front. Those crimes committed by the Waffen-SS and Wehrmacht were investigated by the German military leadership. Just like those crimes committed by the Allies were investigated by their leadership.

Anyways ... No WWII military unit can say they have a spotless record. The Waffen-SS sure has plenty of spots in my opinion, but they were not responsible for the Holocaust. Using a nick like "waffen-ss" or any other Nazi-connected nick is of course distasteful, and can be offensive to some. It's up to HTC to do something if they wish, but I don't think that LW units should come under this category. "gasjew" or other nicks which directly address the atrocities committed should be banned, and the user should also be banned IMO.

Just my two cents ...

[Wotan]

Well, Wotan, I don't know if your accusing the Waffen-SS or defending them, but I just want to make a few

I am doing neither, the facts are clear on their own.

WAFFEN-SS HOLOCAUST PARTICIPATION  
Many Waffen-SS apologists, either former members or postwar revisionist historians, argue that the Waffen-SS did not participate in the Holocaust. There is some truth to their position. By 1944, the Waffen-SS had grown to 900,000 men, with the great majority of them fighting or destined to fight in front-line combat. Certainly hundreds of thousands of these men as individuals did not know of Hitler's "Final Solution" nor played a part in it. Although Reichführer-SS Himmer was unquestionable evil, he was not illogical - he would not waste well-trained, well-armed troops on killing operations or guarding concentration camps when substandard troops were available and while Allied armies battered the shrinking frontiers of the Reich.

However, these veterans and historians are incorrect when speaking of the Waffen-SS as an organization. The Waffen-SS was complicit in the Holocaust and the extent of its guilt must be revealed in a careful response several questions:

Did the Waffen-SS materially participate in the Holocaust (i.e. the deliberate killing of Jewish people)?
The answer is yes:
Poland, Sept. 19, 1939: An SS soldier serving in Panzerdivision Kempf in the SS-Artillerie Regiment, along with a German Army Feldgendarmerie, shoot 50 Jews in a synagogue. The SS soldier is acquitted on the grounds "As an SS man, he was particuarly sensitive to the sight of Jews...and thus acted quite unpremeditatedly in a spirit of youthful enthusiasm.*"
Poland 1939: SSTK division implicated in killing Jews**
April 1941: Das Reich assists Einsatzgruppen in killing 920 Jews near Minsk***
Wiking murders 600 Jews as "reprisal for Soviet cruelties."***
August 8, 1941 SS-Kallverie Regiment massacres 1,950 Jews at Pinsk.****
Skanderbeg troops place 281 Albanian Jews on railway cars to concentration camps*****
**** Paul Wilson, Himmler's Calvary: The Equestrian SS, 1930-45 (Schiffler, 2000) pg. 155. Postwar the Soviets sentenced SS-Kallverie Regiment officer Franz Magill to 5 years in prision for the murder of 5,254 Jews in 1941.
***** Kosovo: A Short History pg. 310, citing T-354, reel 160 frame 3805943 of the US National Archives.

Did the Waffen-SS troops guard the concentration camps?
The answer is yes.


Martin Wirth, guard at Helmbrechts, a satellite camp of Flossenbürg KZ, estimated that of the 54 concentration camp guards in his unit, at least three were volksdeutsche drafted into the Waffen-SS. Martin Wirth was himself a Rumanian volksdeutsche, drafted in 1943 into the Prinz Eugen division but declared unfit for medical duty and reassigned as a concentration camp guard.*
Sonderkommando Dirlewanger (a.k.a the 36th SS Division) spent at least a portion of 1941 guarding the Jewish Ghetto and "Lipowa Camp" at Lubin, Poland.** The unit also operated under the command of SS-Gruppenführer Odilio Globocnik, commander of the "Jewish Camp at Dzikow." Globocnik tasked Dirlewanger's unit with "special activities" - a Nazi euphamism for killing Jews.**
The Totenkopfwachsturmbanne units were considered part of the Waffen-SS. They carried the standard Waffen-SS Soldbuch and received replacements from convalesent SS soldiers from front line units.****
* Goldhagen, Hitler's Willing Executioners pg. 336.
** Ibid. pg. 299 "Supplementing the German personnel who ran and staffed the camp were, successively, contingents of ethnic German paramilitary units, ethnic Germans in the Waffen-SS, members of Kommando Dirlewanger, and finally Ukrainians."
*** The Cruel Hunters footnote #63. It is often claimed that only the poor-quality Waffen-SS troops participated in war crimes and/or the Holocaust while the "elite" Waffen-SS troops were above all that. Unfortunatly the reality was much more grey. For example in August 1940 the SS-FHA transferred 4 NCO's from the Germania replacement battalion to Sonderkommando Dirlewanger. It is likely that these 4 Das Reich NCO's served as guards in the Lubin ghetto. (source The Cruel Hunters pg. 56)
**** See Stein The Waffen-SS. Stein estimates that 10,000 Waffen-SS men worked in organizations under the SS-WVHA, including the concentration camp system. Perry Pierik's From Leningrad to Berlin: Dutch Volunteers in the German Waffen-SS on pg. 24 quotes Wolfgang Solsky's (author of Die Ordung des Terrors: das Konzentrationslazer) figure of 55,000 SS worked in the camp system, of which 10,000 were Waffen-SS

Sadly, there are few documented cases of SS officers refusing to carry out orders vis a vis the Holocaust. One of the few known instances is the case of HSSPF leader and SS-Brigadeführer Karl Zech, who refused an order to confine Jews to the Krakau ghetto. He was dismissed from the SS in March 1944 and committed suicide a month later.

Did the Waffen-SS indirectly participate in the Holocaust?
The answer is yes.
...The whole SS did not do the killings, but the whole SS knew of them."
Robert Lewis Koehl, The Black Corps, pg. 425 (see bibliography)

Waffen-SS Officers as Holocaust perpetuators
The Waffen-SS has been big on claiming it had nothing to do with the Holocaust. But it had alot to do with folks who did. Many of the worst Holocaust criminals held Waffen-SS rank. Indeed, in researching the bios of individual SS officers the evidence of Holocaust complicity begins to pile up:
Take the case of SS-Gruppenführer Odilio Globocnik the man appointed by Himmler to oversee the genocide of Polish Jewry and administer the concentration camps. As HSSPF Trieste in July 1944, the 24th Waffen-Gebirgs (Karstjäger) Division der SS was under his control. Recent research indicates that Globocnik may have served for a brief period in 1939 as a staff officer in the SSVT - for further information please visit the Axis Biographical Research website.
SS-Gruppenfürer Bruno Streckenbach commanded the 19th SS Division commander in 1944, but in 1939 he was the RSHA Amtchef (bureau chief for the SS security service) in the Generalgouvernement of Poland, with Einsatzgruppen units under his direct command.
Kurt Becher, ordinance officer for the SS-Kavallerie Regiment, was sent to Hungary in 1944 by Himmler on a special assignment to procure horses & equipment. There is evidence to indicate that Becher may have assisted Adolf Eichmann's (who also, according to Höhne's The Order of the Death's Head served in the SS-VT for a brief stint) efforts to "trade" Jews. In 1945, Becher was assigned to be a special commissioner for all concentration camps.*
SS-Obergruppenführer Oswald Pohl, commander of the SS-WVHA, which administered both the SS economic enterprises and the concentration camp system, also held the rank of "General der Waffen-SS und Polizei**" Pohl was found guilty at the Nuremberg war crimes trials and executed by the Allies.
Another example of a nefarious SS officer with a Waffen-SS rank would be SS-Oberstgruppenführer Karl Wolff, whose wartime career included developing death camps in Poland and surrender negotiations with the Allies on the belaf of Himmler in 1945. Wolff wrote an SS transportation official about his "Special joy now that 5,000 members of the Chosen People are going to Triblinka every day.***"
SS-Standartenführer Joachim Peiper is famous for his military exploits. A lesser known aspect of his career is is staff work as an adjudant for Himmler. Part of his job was arranging meetings between Himmler and concentration camp commanders.



Totenkopf division originally staffed with concentration camp personnel. Divisional CO SS-Obergruppenführer Theodor "Papa" Eicke created the regulations governing concentration camp prisoners.*
Up to 1,500 Waffen-SS troops transferred to the Einsatzgruppen as a disciplinary measure:
"...They are late or fall asleep on duty. They are court-marshalled but are told they can escape punishment by volunteering for the Special Commandos. Well, these commandos...are murder commandos. When these young men realize what they are being asked to do and refuse to take part in mass murder, they are told the orders are given them as a form of punishment. Either they can obey and take that punishment or they can disobey and be shot...By such methods decent young men are turned into criminals."

SS-Obergruppenführer Georg Keppler**
Waffen-SS Training & Replacement Units used to put down the 1943 Warsaw Ghetto uprising.
* Soldiers of Destruction
** Stein, pg. 263


Did the Waffen-SS materially benefit from the Holocaust?
The answer is yes.
much Waffen-SS clothing and equipment made from Jewish slave labor
confiscated Jewish winter clothing given to SSTK troops*
Soldiers of Destruction pg. 217. primary source BAMA: "part of the shipments came from the huge SS warehouse of confiscated goods in Riga controlled by the HSSPF for Northern Russia." Doubtless some of this clothing formerly belonged to Jewish people. (since Riga contained a sizeable prewar Jewish population)

Was the Waffen-SS indirectly associated with the Holocaust?
The answer is yes.
Concentration camp personnel or Waffen-SS, all server under the same leader (Himmler)
It's a question of ideology. Were the commanders of the Waffen-SS not committed National Socialists? If you asked SS-Oberstgruppenfüuhrer ('Sepp') Dietrich, Eicke, SS-Brigaführer Hermann Otto Fegelein, etc. "Are you willing to implement measures to implement Der Führer "Final Solution to the Jewish Question?" - what do you think their answer would be?
Their answer would be "yes"

[Wotan]

cont.........

Ultimately, the Nüemberg War Crimes trial was entirely correct in labeling the SS a "criminal organization."

The Waffen-SS is a disquieting paradox for the Western mind. It was an elite military formation in the Western model - corageous and sometimes chivalrous. It was simultaneously bloodthirsty, cruel and a willing participant in Hitler's Weltanschaung*

To deny the role of the Waffen-SS in war crimes is a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose of the Waffen-SS as even Waffen-SS soldiers understood it. The purpose of the Waffen-SS was to impose and protect Hitler's world view on the greater European continient - nothing less.

* German philosophical term meaning "way at looking at the world"  

[/QUOTE]

[GScholz]

Than let's leave it at that. The Waffen-SS was not directly involved in the Holocaust (most Germans were indirectly involved). No one, least of all me, deny they committed war-crimes, as did elements of most ground units during the war.

[Slash27]

I cant believe Hazed doesnt like Armani:confused:

[TheFlyingNazi]

LOL! This has gotten out of had! I had'nt seen this post until just now LOL! Puck you are an amazing as*hole, you know that.  Typical though... Americans always think they know everything lol! The sad part, I am an American and dont like subjects like this. I know "Puck" started this because my stupid little callsign, Puck as other members have said here, ITS A $*#% WWII SIM! What do you want for callsigns? Allies1 vs. allies2??? Thats kind of dumb! I also got an E-mail from skuzzy at HiTech, and If I get another I'm reporting Hitech to the Better Buisiness bureau. I'm tired of this BS and tired of ignorant $*@3's like Puck over there. Damn... Puck sounds alot like f u c k? Could I ban his callsign because I find it offensive? For the 3rd time GROW UP!!!! Damn.....

[TheFlyingNazi]

Oh God~! Please dont start in on the nazi symbols on the planes! Come on! ITS A STUPID SYMBOL!!! Hmmm.. there happened to be a lot of racist BS in America 200-300 years ago and alot of killing, could I get rid of the American flag on the allie planes too.....?? See how stupid this is!?!?

.....Guess not

[GScholz]

Originally posted by TheFlyingNazi
Oh God~! Please dont start in on the nazi symbols on the planes! Come on! ITS A STUPID SYMBOL!!! Hmmm.. there happened to be a lot of racist BS in America 200-300 years ago and alot of killing, could I get rid of the American flag on the allie planes too.....?? See how stupid this is!?!?

.....Guess not

There's still a lot of racist BS in America ... and a lot of killing.