Author Topic: Drug use endangers our homes and children!  (Read 1348 times)

Offline miko2d

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3177
Drug use endangers our homes and children!
« Reply #45 on: October 15, 2002, 11:07:16 AM »
Kieran, Orange County (Calif.) Superior Court Judge James P. Gray (who once held the record for the largest drug prosecution in the history of the Central District of California, and is a veteran trial judge) just wrote a book "Why Our Drug Laws Have Failed and What We Can Do About It" to help you understand.

 "The results of our country's Zero Tolerance Drug Prohibition policy are multifaceted, overlapping, and overwhelmingly negative," ... "I have learned from over twenty years of experience that although the War on Drugs makes for good politics, it makes for terrible government."

 "[Although] there may be a few judges in this country who believe that our current drug policy is working, they are surely a small minority,"


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gray's treatise is punctuated with critiques from some of the judicial community's most prestigious members, including Gilbert S. Merritt of the U.S. Court of Appeals in Nashville, Senior Judge John K. Lane Jr. of the U.S. District Court in Denver, Idaho Supreme Court Justice Byron J. Johnson, and Phoenix Appellate Judge Rudolph G. Gerber. Taken together, their remarks offer one of the strongest denunciations to date of America's misguided drug-war policies. Coming from judges, it will be hard for the usual gang of drug-war proponents to dismiss it as irresponsible or self-serving.

 Unlike many previous indictments of U.S. drug policy, Why Our Drug Laws Have Failed also proposes some solutions. From an individual perspective these include educating ourselves to viable drug-policy alternatives, looking critically at television and news coverage on illicit drugs, and publicly confronting those with vested economic or psychological interests in maintaining the status quo. On a national level Gray recommends "de-profitizing the illegal drug market" (by which he means treating currently illicit drugs like other regulated intoxicants or prescription medicines already sold in the market), rescinding America's international anti-drug treaty obligations, turning drug policy over to the states, eradicating mandatory minimum sentencing, reforming asset forfeiture laws, licensing physicians to prescribe medical marijuana, and ending federal subsidies for growing tobacco.

As is the case throughout the book, the author's conviction in his principles is unwavering. "I am so convinced of the rightness and benefits of the course I am proposing that I will end this discussion with a guarantee," he writes. "If we abandon our failed drug policy and implement the programs I have outlined here, crime in the United States will be reduced by a minimum of 35 percent." That should attract some attention.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 I'd be interested to know what controls you believe will work if drugs are legalized.
 You can control sales and advertisemants to the children. With drugs selling for the price of alcohol, the companies would not find it attractive to hire illegal "pushers" to hook up our kids.  

 You may be moved, but willingly moving the line only gives the other side a better position from which to push.
 Which "other side" do you mean? If it's your children, you can still prevent them from doing drugs like you prevent them from smoking or alcohol.
 If it's criminal drug-lords, their business will collapce because enormous profits will evaporate.

 miko

Offline Sandman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17620
Drug use endangers our homes and children!
« Reply #46 on: October 15, 2002, 11:28:25 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kieran
I can't really believe anyone thinks that legalizing drugs will make all drug problems go away. What is more shocking is the number of people that apparently do believe this.


The drug problems will never go away. Not ever.

Ending the drug war will reduce the crime problem that comes with it.
sand

Offline hardcase

  • Parolee
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 719
Drug use endangers our homes and children!
« Reply #47 on: October 15, 2002, 11:45:16 AM »
Do you reallly believe that someone says..I want to smoke pot but it is illegal so I won't? ..Legal drugs will have problems in itself but the problems will be minuscule when compared to the Criminal Justice System's solution.....

Thing is....to legalize drugs means to elimnate the bloated government efforts and the jobs and power that goes with it. The ablilty to regulate a thing is to control a thing. The government fears losing control of the populace, for a populace in rebellion is bad for those in power.

Why not just let those that want..to do all the drugs they can. We can police em up and maintian control of them. The associated property and personel crimes aimed at getting money to buy a hyper-priced drug will be elimnated. The prisons will be free to hold true criminals and not be the holding facility for ppl who should be in drug programs. The Billions gained to the cartels will dry up, rendering them moot. Name one problem that wouuld not be solved by legalizing drugs.

hardcase

Offline Sandman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17620
Drug use endangers our homes and children!
« Reply #48 on: October 15, 2002, 12:03:35 PM »
Miko... Gray is just one... there's more... :)

http://dir.salon.com/news/feature/2001/06/19/judges/index.html
sand

Offline MrLars

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1447
Drug use endangers our homes and children!
« Reply #49 on: October 15, 2002, 02:36:47 PM »
When agent E. Camarena was found tortured and killed I changed my mode of aquisition of the herb. Been self sufficent ever since.

Buying on the black market shouldn't be the only avenue for aquiring a plant that, in all likelyhood, will be legal within the next 20 years.

Those who vehemently oppose the use of MJ should look back to the prohibition era and the effects of the 21st amendment.

After all's said and done, I'd rather face 100 MJ smokers on the road than ONE drunk driver...the effects of alcohol are so much more dangerous it is laughable that this hypocracy exists.

Offline Kieran

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4119
Drug use endangers our homes and children!
« Reply #50 on: October 15, 2002, 08:31:53 PM »
Look... I don't think anyone is evil because they smoke pot. I also  think ending laws because people will break them anyway is a ludicrous idea. If the law serves a purpose, the law should exist. The debate is whether the law serves this purpose or not.

With over 265 million people in this country, would I hypothetically like to see, say, 15% use pot (or narcotic drugs- people are going to use them anyway, so why not make them legal?)? No. I happen to believe that will lead to just as many problems, perhaps more, than what we have by fighting it.

Look at it this way- not everyone who smokes pot is a criminal, but once you have the habit, you are going to feed it. Feeding that habit can be all-consuming, so whether that bag costs $10 or a nickel, it won't matter, the person is going to get the bag one way or another.

Arguing that dropping our standards of behavior in our society will produce less criminals is like arguing dropping the grading scale in school will produce more honor roll students. Sure it will, but you aren't going to like the quality of people you have around you. And would any of you argue the point that setting the precedent for legalizing mj won't be jumped on by advocates of harder drugs, employing the same "well, people are going to do it anyway"?

Offline hardcase

  • Parolee
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 719
Drug use endangers our homes and children!
« Reply #51 on: October 15, 2002, 09:17:56 PM »
Habit...Dope?  My god it is "Reefer Madness":D

What purpose does the prohibition serve? It doesnt prevent usage. It does create an Industry of Cartels and Government, a criminal underclass in all classes of our society. The prohibition creates the problem, that government wants to contain. It cannot be contained. We have been doing drugs of one form or another since we walked upright.

Do you really think your friends who dont do drugs would suddenly say.."since it is legal I want to shoot up some heroin"
Those that will already do.

Remember, no one cares about the drunk now, a druggie would be no different. The guy coughing his lungs up wasnt approached by anyone to give up smoking. Alcohol and Tobacco are a major revenue source for the government that wants to protect us from the evils of legal drugs. Don't you find their arguments for keeping drugs illicit rings false? The War on Drugs keeps many a governemt suit busy and prospering. Lots of nice houses were built on the backs of some poor, undereducated, poorly socialized drug users who manage to go to jail for drug use ..when for example Jebb Bush's daughter, as a daughter of priviledge, gets that treatment help that she fails constantly.

The governmental drug policy is just plain flawed. Exploits the weak, rewards those who make the policies. Confinscation is a great way for police departments fund their activities and many would be hard pressed to pay their way without taking homes from users.

I could go on forever.

hardcase

Offline Maniac

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3817
Drug use endangers our homes and children!
« Reply #52 on: October 16, 2002, 04:36:33 AM »
Quote
What's the difference between someone whacked on pot or drunk sitting in my class?


LOL!!! You need to smoke some pot dude :D the differance is huge!!!
Warbirds handle : nr-1 //// -nr-1- //// Maniac

Offline Kieran

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4119
Drug use endangers our homes and children!
« Reply #53 on: October 16, 2002, 09:21:15 AM »
HC-

You can't convince me that removing the stigma of using drugs won't encourage people who would otherwise avoid drugs from starting.

You can't convince me that advocates for legalizing narcotics and other hardcore drugs won't use the same path taken by those legalizing pot.

You can't convince me that millions of recreational drug users in the country is a good idea. Pointing to the problems we have with alcohol, it should be apparent that turning more people loose on the roads under the influence is really silly and tragic.

And really... don't you grow tired of characterizing my rebuttals to you as extremist when they are anything but? Reefer madness? Pfft. I suppose you don't think we have people that drink themselves into oblivion now, right? I mean, if we only made alcohol legal, people wouldn't have to hide their behavior, the government could put in controls, and it would be one big happy paradise of alcohol... but wait, drunk drivers kill tens of thousands of people every year. Rehab centers are full of people trying to get off the juice. Families are broken (my father was alcoholic, it broke my parents up) and lives are wasted. Damn, if only alcohol was legal back then... ;)

I don't know... maybe it's just the common sense side of me, but if something is a problem it seems the best way to proceed would be to avoid making it something even more available. I realize you want your weed, you may even need it, but that doesn't mean it is in the best interests of the rest of the country.



Maniac-

I was a kid once. I did inhale. I chugged a few, too. I think I can make a fair comparison.

Offline hardcase

  • Parolee
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 719
Drug use endangers our homes and children!
« Reply #54 on: October 16, 2002, 11:50:11 AM »
It is readily avaliable. I had to ask 3 ppl to find some.

So,  some more ppl take it up. They would not be a problem. The weak died on the way and the cowards never started. Let anyone who wants to use MJ or any drug. As long as I don't get robbed or killed by them, they are not my concern. Drunks on the road kill quite a few ppl a year. Go demand that Prohibition be returned. With any luck the major dopers would simply disappear over time. Think about the education the kids could get by seeing ppl wasting away. A pic is worth a thousand words.

It would be nice if all the dopers could simply waste out without causing any problems. Believe me,  no one was ever deterred by the criminalization of drugs from using em. They also don't have a problem killing you if the need is great and money is short.

So bottom line, you a in favor of drug cartels growing rich from ilicit drugs. The crime associated with their being illicit doesnt bother you.

Making drugs illegal is not a deterrent. There will always be someone to supply and those ppl are not very nice.
 Everyone knows that.

As long as you are in favor of keeping them illegal then embrace the consequences of their being so.


Wouldnt it be funny if the ppl in charge of enforcing the drug laws are in fact in bed with the cartels. No wait..they are.

hardcase

Offline Kieran

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4119
Drug use endangers our homes and children!
« Reply #55 on: October 16, 2002, 12:00:14 PM »
Quote
So, some more ppl take it up. They would not be a problem. The weak died on the way and the cowards never started. Let anyone who wants to use MJ or any drug. As long as I don't get robbed or killed by them, they are not my concern. Drunks on the road kill quite a few ppl a year. Go demand that Prohibition be returned. With any luck the major dopers would simply disappear over time. Think about the education the kids could get by seeing ppl wasting away. A pic is worth a thousand words.


Keep talking, you're making my case far more effectively than I ever could.

Offline Kieran

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4119
Drug use endangers our homes and children!
« Reply #56 on: October 16, 2002, 12:21:20 PM »
So let me get this straight... you really are for letting people take any drug they wish recreationally, so long as they don't rob from you or kill you to get the money to do it? Is your life really that simple?

What happens when large numbers of these people are no longer willing or able to work? You know our society isn't going to allow them to starve to death- we'll build great big rehab centers in place of prisons, and the working public (the fewer of them left) will support them with tax dollars.

Crime- ask a cop (we have some onboard, ask 'em) who they'd rather face- a drunk or someone loaded up with PCP. Neither one is good, but I suspect the drunk will be the choice. Maybe I'm wrong.

Just because I don't advocate making drugs legal doesn't mean I support drug cartels- that's simply an ignorant and totally inaccurate comment on your part.

Want to discuss drug enforcement and how it can be bettered, fine. That isn't what you are saying though... you simply want to be able to take whatever drugs you wish without recrimination. You don't care what impact it has on society. You are using extremely flawed logic to support this stance, however. Prove to me that no one avoided drugs because of laws, for instance. As hard as it is to believe, some people do follow laws. Prove to me any of the government controls you suggest could be put in place will be any more effective than those that are now in place.

And please, I never asked for prohibition, so stop sticking words in my mouth. Alcohol IS a problem in this country. Tobacco IS a problem in this country. It isn't a simple matter to turn the spigot on or off to solve the problem, nor am I suggesting the same for drugs. The problem is there is no clear way to open the spigot of drugs and get anything other than a major negative effect. Unless it could be proven to me the alternative is better than what we have now, I wouldn't vote for change. If another way could be proven to be better, I'm all for it.

Offline hardcase

  • Parolee
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 719
Drug use endangers our homes and children!
« Reply #57 on: October 16, 2002, 12:39:41 PM »
You seem to forget there are existing laws controlling behavior and they would be enforced with legal drugs.

The cop facing the PCP guy happens today with all the enforcement the US Gov can muster. Cops are killed by drunks every year. The war is not being won.
Why would ppl quit work? Druggers work. They just work at being a criminal class. Junkies work at night and use a weapon now, with all that enforcement. They work at being a criminal because they are addicted to smack and are charged a huge markup by the suppliers. Nothing worse than a junkie out of herion with a gun, when all he needs is a quarters worth of legal smack, some rehab and education.The very thing you are worried about is happening now and growing. Legal drugs elimnates the crime associated with it.


I suspect you see hordes of drug crazed denizens beating down your door..but why would they do that with legal drugs, controlled and taxed, much like alcohol and tobacco. Even been robbed by someone wanting a drink? I have been robbed by what was found out to be two smackheads needing money. One really wanted to shoot me. The other didn't. He won the argument. Was an interesting 30 seconds.

So, do I care if someone wants to do drugs. Not in the least. I just want them not involving themselves in my life. A nice park with controls, rehabs, education for them would suit me fine. It would benefit them also.

The laws today do not serve me or them well. Do you feel safe out at night in a downtown area? Thank the drug laws for that unsafe feeling.


hardcase

Offline Kieran

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4119
Drug use endangers our homes and children!
« Reply #58 on: October 16, 2002, 01:01:51 PM »
I really suggest you come down, then post. When you re-read that last post it will seem a little more... disconnected... with a clearer head.

But by all means, keep talking, because you really are doing my work for me. As if your life exists in a vacuum, and what happens in society has no impact on you... :D

Offline Montezuma

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 959
Re: i feel sorry. . .
« Reply #59 on: October 16, 2002, 01:09:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by N1kPaz
for any drug cartel that is expecting to raise enough money to help fund terrorism by smuggling pot. there just isnt that much money in it. compared to coke, and heroin, you would have to be insane to waste your drug cartel resources smuggling weed.


When you use Northern Alliance Brand Smack, you are shooting up for freedom.