Author Topic: whoever modelled the La7....  (Read 1712 times)

Offline Badboy

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whoever modelled the La7....
« Reply #90 on: October 19, 2002, 09:11:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Xjazz
Great work Badboy!



How about 15k and/or 30k EM analysis with the D9 added to the La7 v P-51?


Thanks.

Certainly, keep your eyes open at SimHQ, there are lots of great things in store for the future!

Badboy
The Damned (est. 1988)
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Offline gripen

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whoever modelled the La7....
« Reply #91 on: October 19, 2002, 02:18:02 PM »
Badboy,
So far you have explained following:

"The fact is that changes in the various coefficients are somewhat masked when the large number of parameters involved are all merged together numerically to produce the curves. I know this because the effects described in those reports have been included in my analysis and only appear to make a negligible difference to the EM curves for prop fighters, and in practice the reduction in the coefficient of lift due to compressible flow appear to be masked, to some extent, by other effects that increase the coefficient of lift, such as the contributions to lift from thrust and propwash, so that although those things have been modelled, they aren’t at all obvious on that type of diagram."

Well, some effects might be masked but this Clmax difference can be clearly seen from the real world test data which certainly contain all masking effects. In the case of the P-51 clmax difference if compared to other fighters is far more than "negligible". In practice at 30k the P-51 could pull more than 1g more instantaneous at high speed than competion. At sealevel difference is small but as can be seen from the NACA data, the difference exists there too. Basicly by limiting your analysis to sealevel you miss one of the main points which made the P-51 so succesfull.

You should also study very carefully that NACA 1719, specially graphs which explains when buffeting starts. You can also compare it to other real world data.

gripen

Offline wells

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whoever modelled the La7....
« Reply #92 on: October 19, 2002, 02:22:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Badboy

Basically, the report isn’t showing you the type of v-n diagram you think it is, it isn’t showing you the aircraft envelope at all, and it isn’t showing you the lift limit, it is showing you a buffet boundary, that in most cases has been reached by taking the aircraft outside the envelope and then into post stall conditions.


As I read it, it's only for the tail, not the wing or the whole aircraft?  None of the WW2 planes that are being discussed here can hit mach 0.64 in level flight anyway, so it wouldn't matter to the E-M diagrams?

Offline Badboy

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whoever modelled the La7....
« Reply #93 on: October 19, 2002, 04:03:41 PM »
Gripen,

You appear to have misinterpreted those reports, and compounded that by making false assumptions based on your misunderstanding. At the moment you seem to be so far off track with this, and since my explanations don’t appear to be helping, I’m simply ready to give up.

In fact, it seems I can’t post here with out getting sucked into this sort of silliness, so unfortunately, this will be my last post on these boards.

Poke me with a fork… I’m done!

Badboy
The Damned (est. 1988)
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  • Air Warrior Trainer - Retired

Offline funkedup

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whoever modelled the La7....
« Reply #94 on: October 19, 2002, 07:00:08 PM »
They should rename this game "Nerd Wars".  :)

Offline hazed-

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whoever modelled the La7....
« Reply #95 on: October 19, 2002, 08:53:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Badboy


You are welcome.

Looks like Hazed is still gonna shoot me down without augering after though, despite the D9 info :)

Badboy



thnx for chart badboy!  superb and just what i needed to see.

and ill 'TRY' not to shoot at you hehe :)

Offline gripen

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whoever modelled the La7....
« Reply #96 on: October 19, 2002, 11:08:15 PM »
Hm... I tried to be polite and used easily available sources. Seems that someone can't stand critics. After all these simulations are just games, not real world.

gripen

Offline Mark Luper

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whoever modelled the La7....
« Reply #97 on: October 20, 2002, 09:27:54 AM »
It is interesting to note all the posts that say that there is not enough "P" factor "felt" in the AH aircraft. As far as torque induced flight charactaristics, I don't have much to say about it but when AH was in alpha and early beta releases there was a considerable amount of "P" factor in the fm. It was reduced I beleive because of the difficulty even some vets from other sims had with it. I remember the 109G10 and the P-51 being quite a bear to get down the runway straight until I got used to it.

Nothing to add to the discussion, just an observation. :)
MarkAT

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Offline Dweeb

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whoever modelled the La7....
« Reply #98 on: October 20, 2002, 11:09:10 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by gripen
Hm... I tried to be polite and used easily available sources. Seems that someone can't stand critics. After all these simulations are just games, not real world.

gripen

Hmm... Yes the sources are readily available, and this is just a game not the real world. But from where I'm sitting, the problem has nothing to do with critics, and everything to do with the fact that you have been talking complete and utter nonsense.

Dweeb

Offline gripen

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whoever modelled the La7....
« Reply #99 on: October 20, 2002, 04:06:41 PM »
Dweeb,
Well, thanks for support.

While buffet boundary is not same as stall boundary, they might happen at same g load. And this is what happens partially in the case of the P-51; up to mach 0,64 stall boundary and buffet boundary are same as noted in the NACA TN 1719. This conclusion is also supported by another NACA study, NACA Report 1219, which BTW also explains the difference between stall regime (mach 0,64). Above mach 0,64 buffeting starts before max load factor is reached but because the P-51 reaches it's peak load factor at mach 0,64, it is safe to say that it's buffet boundary can be directly used for instantaneous turn rate comparisons. And from the pilot's viewpoint buffeting warns about coming compressebility effects at speeds above mach 0,64 while doing maneuvers, therefore the buffet boundary is also practical maneuvering limit.

But don't believe me, read yourself and think then again. And if you want more thinking, then study that Clmax issue, link is above.

gripen