Author Topic: Hispano vs Mg151 (no whine)  (Read 986 times)

Offline FDutchmn

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Hispano vs Mg151 (no whine)
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2002, 03:43:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tony Williams
Re. the Dutchman's table: there were considerable differences in the percentage weight of HE in the shells used by different nations.


ahh thank you for the clarification :)

Offline Vermillion

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Hispano vs Mg151 (no whine)
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2002, 10:51:03 AM »
Yes, the percentage of explosive to the weight of the projectile was an assumption I had to make in my early work, because there was not any good data available for most of the shells we were comparing.  Since then, I've found alot better data (I have it for most all countries now from original source documentation) and Tony wrote his book which contains that data as well.

Luftwaffe guys.  Please realize that mine shells were not used exclusively.  Even at the height of the bomber offensive in the West (where they used a larger percentage of mine shells) mine shells were only 1 in 3 or 1 in 4, in a standard ammunition belt.  So to do the calculation correctly, you must account for ammunition mixes.

I don't have a copy of it handy, but I did this once on a spreadsheet with all the correct data, and accounting for ammunition mixes, and it still comes out the same.  The Hispano is more effect in damage and ability to hit than the MG151.

FD my webpages are gone, lost to the great HD crash ghost of the internet.  My webhosting company switched servers and lost all my webpages, and almost simultanesouly I had a HD failure on my computer at home and lost all the copies of it there.

Offline FDutchmn

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Hispano vs Mg151 (no whine)
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2002, 11:31:56 AM »
Indeed, it was more of an attempt to show the difference in lethality between those with explosive rounds and those without.  I think it did show that there was quite a bit of difference which was dependent on the amount of explosives in the shells.

Offline Mitsu

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Hispano vs Mg151 (no whine)
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2002, 11:33:39 AM »
Verm,

is this your site?
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.vermin.net/

Offline mipoikel

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Hispano vs Mg151 (no whine)
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2002, 11:34:30 AM »
Are you talking about this?:D :D

Btw this guy is LLv34 Blauk with MG151;)

I am a spy!

Offline Fishu

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Hispano vs Mg151 (no whine)
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2002, 11:53:50 AM »
Looks like Blauk is ready for the bird hunt.

Offline Vermillion

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Hispano vs Mg151 (no whine)
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2002, 12:05:45 PM »
Yes Mitsu !! :)

Thank you.  I didn't know that existed.

Offline Wilbus

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Hispano vs Mg151 (no whine)
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2002, 06:31:09 PM »
Quote
Luftwaffe guys. Please realize that mine shells were not used exclusively. Even at the height of the bomber offensive in the West (where they used a larger percentage of mine shells) mine shells were only 1 in 3 or 1 in 4, in a standard ammunition belt.


Don't believe that at all, however, mixing ammuntion was standard in all airforces, almost no planes used one shell only but they mixed incendary with HE and more.
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline Tony Williams

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Hispano vs Mg151 (no whine)
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2002, 09:55:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wilbus


Don't believe that at all, however, mixing ammuntion was standard in all airforces, almost no planes used one shell only but they mixed incendary with HE and more.


I have a copy of an original German document, dated 1944, which gives the following data for loading 2cm ammo belts:

Fighters: 2x M-Geschoss, 2x HEI-T, 1x API or APHE

Nightfighters: as above but with dim trace in the HEI-T

"Kampf-Schlachtflieger und Jaeger": 10x HEI-T, 10x M-Geschoss, 1x API, 1x APHE.

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Discussion forum at: http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/

Offline Tony Williams

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Hispano vs Mg151 (no whine)
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2002, 09:56:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Vermillion
Yes, the percentage of explosive to the weight of the projectile was an assumption I had to make in my early work, because there was not any good data available for most of the shells we were comparing.  Since then, I've found alot better data (I have it for most all countries now from original source documentation) and Tony wrote his book which contains that data as well.


Just wait for the next one :)

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Discussion forum at: http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/

Offline HoHun

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Hispano vs Mg151 (no whine)
« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2002, 01:11:04 PM »
Hi Tony,

>"Kampf-Schlachtflieger und Jaeger":

Are you sure? "Kampf-Schlachtflieger" is not an established technical term as far as I know.

"Kampf-/Schlachtflieger" (bomber/attack aircraft) would make more sense, but in combination with "Jäger" it really could be read as "all combat aircraft", which I'd say is somewhat surprising.

>10x HEI-T, 10x M-Geschoss, 1x API, 1x APHE.

Is there any instruction on the actual order within the belt as well? (I assume that 10/10/1/1 isn't the actual order :-)

Do the German documents provide any background on why any specific mix is chosen?

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Tony Williams

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Hispano vs Mg151 (no whine)
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2002, 01:39:41 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by HoHun
Hi Tony,

>"Kampf-Schlachtflieger und Jaeger":

Are you sure? "Kampf-Schlachtflieger" is not an established technical term as far as I know.

"Kampf-/Schlachtflieger" (bomber/attack aircraft) would make more sense, but in combination with "Jäger" it really could be read as "all combat aircraft", which I'd say is somewhat surprising.

>10x HEI-T, 10x M-Geschoss, 1x API, 1x APHE.

Is there any instruction on the actual order within the belt as well? (I assume that 10/10/1/1 isn't the actual order :-)

Do the German documents provide any background on why any specific mix is chosen?

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)


I can't provide any more help, Henning - the information in the document is exactly as I have presented it, and that's all there is.

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Military gun and ammunition discussion forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/

Offline Wilbus

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Hispano vs Mg151 (no whine)
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2002, 09:15:40 AM »
Edited, was delyric.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2002, 12:34:15 PM by Wilbus »
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

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Offline Charge

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Hispano vs Mg151 (no whine)
« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2002, 07:29:54 AM »
Im interested of the ballistics here, meaning how much drop did the ammo have, say, in 500 meters of flightpath?

The destruction power has not yet concerned me (YET) in AH but the ability to hit targets within 100 - 500 meters in various G-loadings.

Lazer-Hispano vs. Sling-shot 151/20?

To those with data and ability: How much drop do these two cannons ammo have in 300 meters? Or what is their flight time for this distance?
(Depends of course of the grenade being used...)

This would pretty much tell something about their usefullness in deflection shooting.

I also think there is difference whether a M-geshoss enters the fuselage or the wing as the blast would have a different expansion room and thus different blast-effect (Making the wing hit more lethal). Am I on wrong tracks here?


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Offline Tony Williams

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Hispano vs Mg151 (no whine)
« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2002, 02:33:59 PM »
The 117g API shell in the MG 151/20 took 0.898 secs to reach 500m, by which time it slowed from 720 to 430 m/s and dropped 3.37m from the line of sight. Figures for the 92g M-Geschoss are 0.952 secs, 790 to 363 m/s and 3.5m.

I don't have comparable figures for the Hispano. However, according to German sources the rate of velocity loss was similar to the 117g HEI, which would have meant a velocity loss from around 860 to 520 m/s, with obviously a shorter flight time and smaller drop than the German shells.

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Discussion forum at: http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/