Author Topic: AH vs "Real Life" flying  (Read 429 times)

Offline brendo

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AH vs "Real Life" flying
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2002, 05:03:11 AM »
Very cool Discod :cool: !

MrPluto, its a small world.... Retnuh is still a good friend of mine.

My preconceptions of flight were based on my flight simming and reading from a young age, so it is fun comparing RL and AH.

I find myself transferring my flight training INTO AH, which makes me a better online pilot and the sim translates fairly well. There is no way to simulate G forces into a sim and everything seems to happen VERY fast in real life.

AH has helped get a basic awareness of how formation flying might work.

I fly Retnuhs plane every now and again. Here are some photos from last month (note the aircraft is designed for aerobatics).



« Last Edit: October 21, 2002, 05:06:47 AM by brendo »

Offline rv6

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AH vs "Real Life" flying
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2002, 06:49:12 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by LLv34 Jarsci
I´m gonna visint Aircombat USA someday and have first hand experience about Combat flying and then I don´t have to speculate any more.. :) theres only one but.. money!


Hi discod,
You put it nicely on the head!  Most of the folks who are full-time MA "sim pilots", have no trouble transitioning to real ones.  As one guy said (above) the P factor, torque on takeoff is a bugger in larger engine craft..  Practicing "engine outs" in real life comes easily after always trying to "land a kill" in a shot up AH bird.  I found landings in real planes to be easier than sims, due to a 180 degree 3D view (real ones) as opposed to the straight-ahead sim view.

Spins are pretty close, from an academic point.  From a true visual point though.. WOWEE!  When you do your first stall/spin it snaps over in a heart-beat.. the swirling straight down 360 visual is quite exciting.. (HO SH%T!)

Flat spins (inverted entry, stall, on your back spins) are even more breath-taking, but still cured the same as the AH model..

The thing that really impressed the Be-Jezuz outta' me is G-Force!  Namely SUSTAINED G-FORCE!

No flight sim on earth (other than the USAF F16 centrafuge sim) can prepare you for heavy, sustained G's..

Hi LLv34~Jarsci !
FYI, my hoodlum pilot pals & I do a hop with AirCombat USA twice a year in SIA Marchetti SF260's.  Really worth the while for a taste of the real deal.  We went up last week at Gabreski field on Long Island NY.

Their rules of engagement are a little restrictive (for safety purposes), but when that little crotch-rocket fires off the runway, wheels in the well,, the plane is yours.  And it will do ANYTHING you can do with an AH Spit-IX.  We call it "extreme aerobatics", ha!

Verticle rolling scissors take on a whole new meaning when you split-s, come sceaming downhill, and bottom out in a 5.25 +G pullout, that blinds you until you hit the top of the loop,, do a negative -G pushover that crams your helmet into the canopy so that your ear is welded to your shoulder,, invert,, AND REPEAT.  It really defies verbal description,, definately not like the AH sim.

Other than that..  AH is a really great flight model.

See ya'

RV6 ~

Offline LLv34_Camouflage

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AH vs "Real Life" flying
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2002, 07:52:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by rv6

split-s, come sceaming downhill, and bottom out in a 5.25 +G pullout, that blinds you until you hit the top of the loop,, do a negative -G pushover that crams your helmet into the canopy so that your ear is welded to your shoulder,, invert,, AND REPEAT.  


Now THAT sounds like fun. :D

Camo
CO, Lentolaivue 34
Brewster's in AH!
"How about the power to kill a Yak from 200 yards away - with mind bullets!"

Offline Xjazz

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AH vs "Real Life" flying
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2002, 08:00:56 AM »
AirCombat  USA?

My dream too... (sight)

Offline MRPLUTO

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AH vs "Real Life" flying
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2002, 10:02:54 AM »
brendo,

Next time you see Retnuh tell him "hello" for me!  I still remember a mission we flew in WarBirds:  3 of us in P-39s on the deck, jumped by two Bf-109s.  Two of us broke left, one right, into the 109s.  Retnuh exploded a 109 on his first pass with the P-39's 37mm cannon, turned back and exploded the other one.

MRPLUTO

Offline Dingbat

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AH vs "Real Life" flying
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2002, 10:37:22 AM »
Discod, what materials did you use to study?

Offline phaetn

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AH vs "Real Life" flying
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2002, 11:49:21 AM »
I flew Air Combat USA in California a couple of years ago.  While I don't have a PPL, my buddy used to run a flight school so I've had a lot of seat time in small aircraft, but none of the classroom instruction.  Besides which, I suck at math. ;)  

Air Combat USA really helped me to appreciate the physical forces at work when flying combat manoeuvres in a plane.  Just for basic concepts, and for a feel for what to do, AH experience was a big help.

I have done lots of track work with race-prepped cars, so I have a good idea of how real-life physical forces and sims compare with each other (i.e. driving at Mosport going hell bent for leather in a 520hp Porsche, and doing it "virtually" in Grand Prix Legends, for instance).  The aircraft experience was novel to me, though.  The two things that really struck me were:

1) The ease of visibility.

It was really easy to keep an eye on the target.  None of this "hat switching" stuff and having to figure out what view to go to -- just move your eyeballs, and if that’s not enough, then your head. :)  Also, it was very simple to predict the opponent's flight path as it was easy to see his orientation even at a distance.  Amazing how much calculation the brain does automatically for things like closing speeds, aspect ratios, lead/lag, etc., even for someone like me that sucks at math. :D  Unfortunately, there's no way a flat monitor is going to give anywhere close to the "real experience" visually anytime soon.  Even if we're supposedly getting close to real-time rendering of photo-realistic terrain and aircraft, that whole 3d thing is a kicker, as are monitors that aren't big enough to allow peripheral vision, thereby requireing field of view adjustments, etc. etc.

2) The G forces and seat of the pants stuff.

I don't think I probably ever pulled more than 3.5Gs (I think the SIAI Marchetti SF-260s are rated to 6), but I sure felt every one.  I also hate anything less than 1 G (never mind negative ones!).  Even 0G makes my stomach end up in my mouth, and I really don’t like it (more on that later!)...  Also, there’s a sense of being "in tune" with the aircraft because every change in its flight aspect can be physically felt.  When going back to AH in front of a computer, there's a certain sense of alienation or distancing of events.

Funnily enough, I notice that distancing from reality less in a driving sim, since a lot of track work is about "setting up" the car for a corner, and predicting the car's behaviour throughout it, so as to not be totally surprised when something happens (e.g. expecting the unexpected, but nevertheless somewhat predictable).  That part translates really well in a driving sim, though there are obviously less clues about when the car does begin to misbehave, and there's a total absence of steering feedback or weight transfer.  

I found a bigger separation from flight sims to my Air Combat USA experience than I do with driving sims and real cars on a track, but maybe that’s just because I have more experience with high performance cars and get the sense of “being there” more easily since I have a much broader frame of reference…  I’ll bet that in the SIAI Marchetti SF-260 I was reacting more than predicting, and that’s just as a result of my inexperience.  While  I quickly feel "at one" with a car, as if it's an extension of me, I don’t do that in a plane – fighter pilots often say that they do, though.

The one thing I can say about the experience, is that it totally changed the immersiveness of flight sims for me for a long while.  Eventually it wore off, but for a time after the “combat” experience I would make groaning noises when carving turns in AH, and had a frame of reference for views, ground objects, landings and take-offs, etc.  I could really “picture” what I was doing, with real life sensations to back it up.  It honestly made the game a totally different experience for me.

As for the flight itself, it was damned cool just to be in a fighter trainer with a parachute and a Mae West on (since we were at the California coast over the Pacific).  Looking straight up through the canopy while wearing a helmet with shaded visor and pulling back in the stick and adjusting the lift vector onto target was just too damned cool for words. :D  I wore my own flight suit, just to add a touch of personal flair (it belonged to an RAF Wing Commander from the 1950s).

Turns out, all its pockets came in handy because I needed sick bags: I threw up three times in the air.  Ugh – and this is after I had had half a Gravol that morning, too.  Thankfully, my opponent barfed, too, so there were a couple of times when we just “called it off” to resettle our stomachs, and then started up again. :)

Since I was in town on business I had a rental car, and offered to drive the “bandit” back to his hotel after the event.  I had to pull over and barf once more on that ride, too. ;)  So, for me anyway, I guess it’s both a blessing and a curse that I don’t feel the Gs in AH. He he he.  How messy would my keyboard be?    People tell me that you quickly get used to it though – pilots after leave can feel queasy if they’ve been out of the cockpit for a while, and it’s all a matter of getting accustomed to it again...  Oddly, enough, I’m fine getting tossed around in cars (as long as I’m driving) and wafting racing fuel…  it’s that less than 1G stuff, I tell ya... we don't do that often in cars except going over a rise, or when doing forward flips, I suppose...  I don't plan on doing one of those any times soon! :p [knock on wood]

Cheers,
phaetn

« Last Edit: October 21, 2002, 12:10:03 PM by phaetn »

Offline Sandman

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AH vs "Real Life" flying
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2002, 12:08:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by rv6

You put it nicely on the head!  Most of the folks who are full-time MA "sim pilots", have no trouble transitioning to real ones.  

RV6  


True enough in my experience. A few years ago, I went flying sailplanes with the China Lake Weapons Test Squadron and the Edwards Test Pilot School. We flew out of Tehachapi.

I flew all day long... four flights in three different aircraft and three instructors. Every instructor asked the same thing once I got a hold of the controls, "Are you a pilot?" I always got a chuckle while explaining... "No, but I've flown on my computer." :)

Anyway... I think the thing that clued them was my coordinated use of rudder and stick. Banking the sailplanes results in almost no turn at all so you gotta put some foot in it.

We stalled every aircraft at least once just to get a feel for it.. The first two were odd... the buffeting would begin and then the entire plane felt like it was just wallowing much like a leaf in the wind. Simple recovery... push the nose down. The third stall was almost violent. Instructor says, the left wing will drop really fast and so will the nose behind it... just stomp the right pedal and you'll have it back. He wasn't kidding. :)

Really a squeak trying to follow behind the tow plane... I did it three times and never did it smooth enough IMHO. Much like formation flying with a tether.

Oh... and last note... one of the instructors that I flew with was Doolittle's grandson. It was a good day. I want a sailplane. :)
sand