Author Topic: 109F4 vs Hurricane IID  (Read 299 times)

Offline Gabber88

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109F4 vs Hurricane IID
« on: October 31, 2002, 10:14:13 AM »
How to evase hurriIID with my Bf109F4?
I tryed rope-a-dope and dive with break turn... it is always on my tail! help me please!

Offline ra

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109F4 vs Hurricane IID
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2002, 10:30:46 AM »
If you couldn't rope him it means you didn't have enough of an energy advantage to start with.  If the opponent's plane can turn much better than yours, you have to start the fight with an energy advantage.

ra

Offline J_A_B

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109F4 vs Hurricane IID
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2002, 10:43:56 AM »
"If the opponent's plane can turn much better than yours, you have to start the fight with an energy advantage. "

This is not true in the case of the 109F-4 vs Hurricane II, because the 109 has such a massive advantage in climb and E-retention.  

Basically the guy in the 109 needs to get the Hurricane to bleed his E, then just keep climbing (a spiral climb works well).  The Hurricane has too poor a climbrate to hold its nose up for any length of time and WILL stall out, at which point the 109 can turn around and hurt it.

J_A_B

Offline Gabber88

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109F4 vs Hurricane IID
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2002, 12:12:07 PM »
Thanks a lot...
But what is Spiral Climb?
Can tell me how to do it?

Offline J_A_B

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109F4 vs Hurricane IID
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2002, 12:53:14 PM »
To put it in simple terms, it's a climbing turn.  

This maneuver can and will work against a Hurricane, but it's not easy and requires you to be aware of exactly how much speed the Hurricane has--if he has a lot of speed when you start it, he will be able to follow you long enough to kill you.

In general, a 109F will want to fight upwards against a Hurricane.  Be sure to be using WEP in the 109, it is very important.

The most dangerous part of the fight is the initial part of it, when the Hurricane still has speed.  Once he gets slow you can use vertical, climbing maneuvers to gain the advantage.   However, in order to do this you must avoid getting shot down.

What I like to do in a Hurricane vs 109F matchup is start a climb as soon as the fight begins--the enemy will usually turn around to try to follow, and won't quite be in gun range.  At this point you can continue climbing for awhile then eventually begin turning as you climb--he will not be able to reach you.  Eventually you will be in an excellent position to attack him.

Remember that this is not a "beginner's maneuver"--you have to practice a lot to be able to know how to pull this off, and will likely get blasted a few times practicing  :)    In general the Me-109 isn't an easy plane to fly, but once you get good at it it's one of the best possible fighters for 1 vs 1 due to its outstanding climbrate and acceleration.

J_A_B

Offline Gabber88

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109F4 vs Hurricane IID
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2002, 12:56:24 PM »
Thanks a lot!!
Bye

Offline ra

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109F4 vs Hurricane IID
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2002, 01:06:10 PM »
Gabber,

Just keep in mind, the Hurri's cannon rounds climb faster than a 109F.

ra

Offline vorticon

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109F4 vs Hurricane IID
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2002, 01:13:57 PM »
of course no matter what you do if the hurr pilot is smart and knows what your doing he wont even bother following you through silly manouvers like climbing turn or whatever hell just extend a little bit turn around and kill you right and the end of it when you are starting to stall and have little E...

Offline DoctorYO

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109F4 vs Hurricane IID
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2002, 09:53:14 AM »
Dont Forget the 109's superior rudder authority either..  With proper use after highyoyo's you can gain angles and even saddle superior turning fighters.....


Granted you will bleed e in the process but thats where the superior acceleration of the 109 will be appreciated.


2 cents


DoctorYO

Offline Kweassa

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109F4 vs Hurricane IID
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2002, 10:52:13 AM »
The Bf109F-4 is more than a match for the Hurri2C(or 2D) in many important aspects. You should really come and play In the CT setup: Tunisia if you have an on-line account - there are a lot of interesting fights between the P-40E, Hurricane Mk.IIC  and the Bf109F-4 in that particular setup. As a joke, the Axis pilots would compliment in a cocky, smug way "the Bf109F-4 is a Tempest to those P-40s and Hurricanes!" ;)

 ..

 However, there is that one universal drawback on all Bf109s - while staying alive and gaining advantage is easily done, getting the advantageous situation to actually connect with kills is very hard:

a) The guns are incredibly weak and unaccurate in relativity when compared to four mighty Hispano 20mms on the Hurricanes. This means that the Hurricanes can get just one chance for a good shot and he'll drop the 109. In the case of 109, there may not be a potential chance coming at all if the enemy you are fighting against is smart - unless you jeopardize you're absolute advantage and start doing risky moves.  

b) Since all the 109s compress like a rock at speeds over 400mph,  the 109s, unlike other competent "BnZ" aircrafts, cannot transfer alt/speed into a direct advantage(of course, unless you are one heck of a crack shot). Thus, the 109s have to to do some serious maneuvering to the limit alt/speed advantage allows, and then break away by using its climb and acceleration. Thus it is often mentioned as a "hybrid" style fighter. It is during those phases that the 109 is most vulnerable - which good Hurricane pilots will exploit to its maximum.

c) The F-4 is the "thoroughbred" of the 109s - a mix of high maneuverability with good speed and acceleration and climb rates. But even so, compared to the Hurricanes the F-4 lacks very much in pure maneuverability. The most important factor one must consider when luring planes like Spitfires, N1K2s, Zeros and Hurricanes to the vertical is this: just being sure you have more energy to out zoom the enemy is not enough. You have to be sure that you have enough energy to out zoom AND regain control.

 What I mean by this is:

 * Usually, Hispanos are considered to be lethal even at ranges of 700~800 yards. So, when you lure an enemy to the vertical, you have to be sure that you have enough energy to out zoom him by at least 900~1000 yards.

 * But, even when you have outzoomed the enemy, there is a considerable difference in the "margin" where Hurricanes and 109 pilots each regain full control of their planes - one may outzoom a Hurricane with the Bf109F-4 by 1000 yards, but after they both stall out in the vertical, the 109 pilot takes much more time to regain full control of his plane than the Hurricane. So, what can happen is, you see that you have outzoomed the Hurricane by about 900 yards in the vertical. You see him falter and stall out. But just then you stall out too. While you grunt and struggle with the flight controls to nurse the low-speed 109 to turn nose down without falling into a inverted flat stall, the Hurricane pilot noses down, dives a little to regain speed, and then noses up again(!) and meets the 109 coming down with a Head-on(!!)

* Therefore, you need very good judgement and timing to gain advantages when fighting against planes like Spits, N1K2s, Hurricanes and Zeros. You have to be sure you have enough energy and you also have to time your reversal carefully. It is usually this part where inexperienced 109 pilots make their mistakes.

 
 ....


 Therefore, in many occasions, a pure 1 vs 1 fight may end up in a stale-mate(but practically the Hurricane being the winner because it led the fight to a stalemate as the Bf109 has to run away). Success and high kills are rare in the Bf109. To put it simply, it is solemnly because of the reasons I have stated above that people hesitate to choose the Bf109 as their main rides. You fly a lot, you survive long, you strive and struggle and fight, and the result you usually get in the MA is no kills, many assists.  

 Bf109s are basically very inefficient when you engage enemies 1 vs 1. The most recommended method for overcoming all the disadvantages is flying in tight, disciplined pairs, with a wingman. Team work and group tactics increase the success rate of the 109 dramatically.

 ...

 So, all-in-all, I recommend that you don't fight planes like Hurricanes alone. Skilled 109F-4 pilots will thwart the Hurricanes easily, but getting there takes a looooooooooooooot of time.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2002, 10:54:16 AM by Kweassa »