Islam Is Peace

[Toad]

Originally posted by Boroda
Russians were not so "practical" as the US government in XIX century to simply kill every highlander in Caucasus and occupy their land. We always have to pay for being too sentimental.

But maybe I spoke too soon. This is awfully good.. probably the best in that last.

Russian Sentimentality.. brings to mind the Ukraine in 1932-33.

Or perhaps the '36-'38 Purge?

Is there a sentimental song about 0RDER N0. 001223, executed in Estonia in '41?

I suppose it was sentimentality at Katyn Forest as well.

Boroda: I don't diddlying care. I just want that beasts to be isolated. And I am sick of all that "human rights" crap.

[/b]

Ah. I see. "that human rights crap".

[Samm]

Originally posted by Tuomio
Im absolutely sure that tear gas will kill a man if conditions are right.

So will H2o, but it only takes a tiny amount of fentanyl to cause respiratory arrest .

High concentration and weakened body will be very risky.

[/b] No it isn't .
 

It generates lots of all kinds of nasty side-effects (to all organs it touches) and i dont have any doubt that it can be lethal.

[/b] To all organ it touches ? are you sure ?

Its all in the concentrations. Try to spray some tear gas they use in battlefield to your opponent and i wouldnt be suprised if he'd suffocate.

[/b] I would be very surprised, having been exposed to burning CS in a small enclosed room just like a million or so americans are every year .

Same goes to Fentanyl, it can be lethal or it can be diluted for lesser side effects. Lesser side-effects of course lessen the WANTED side effects, like paralysis. We wouldnt want that to happen wouldnt we?

[/b] Paralysis isn't a side effect of a paralytic agonist .

 

DIdnt they mention they estimated a 150 casualties? Why wouldnt this estimate be in direct connection with the gas?

[/b] No they didn't .

And dont tell me that those 600 alive patients count as casualty, no way.

[/b] I'm curious to know what you think the word casualty means .

If they wouldve received tear gas, all would be sent in the hospital just in case.

[/b] In all the history of riot gas deployment I know of no cases of that happening .

Theyre just waiting for the opium high to vanish and prolly they give "soft landing" with some opium derivate, like ketamine.

[/b] This has been one long bellybutton "opium high", do you know how long the average recovery time is for general anasthesia ? Likely many of them are being treated with a regimen of broad spectrum IV antibiotics for aspiration pnuemonia. Using ketamin to aid in narcosis recovery ! Wow I learned something new today .

Move along folks, nothing to see here, just policing missinformation .

[StSanta]

Heh keep posting Boroda. I rather like seeing how 'the other side' sees things .

And that point another chap made about unbelieveable screenplay and bad music in the bible - a gem!

[Boroda]

Russian Sentimentality.. brings to mind the Ukraine in 1932-33.

Evil communsts "organized" that mass starvation? That's not even funny. The last big hunger happened in 1947. Before the revolution such things happened maybe once every five years. One of dr. Goebbels's inventions.

Or perhaps the '36-'38 Purge?

Dr. Goebbels's invention #2. We have more people in prison now in 2002 then in the worst year of "purges", 1940. Almost 2 times more, and it's only Russian Federation, not the whole USSR.

Is there a sentimental song about 0RDER N0. 001223, executed in Estonia in '41?

Please, educate me on this subject, but, i kindly ask you - provide facts, not your usual ministry of propaganda materials.

I suppose it was sentimentality at Katyn Forest as well.

I have told you many times that I don't have an opinion about that accident, but the last reliable document on it was the Burdenko's comission report, provided to the Nuremburg court, signed, among others, by US representatives. So, speaking to you, and going down to your level of argument - I'd call it dr. Goebbels's invention #3. Isn't it too much for one post? Or your purpose is popularisation of nazi propaganda?

Originally posted by Toad


Ah. I see. "that human rights crap". [/B]

"Human rights watch" aready demands "investigation" for "murder of helpless people" in Nord-Ost theatre, calling it an "execution without trial".

The commission should investigate the circumstances of all deaths in relation to this incident and determine whether any were extrajudicial executions. Media reports and television footage suggest that some of the estimated fifty hostage-takers who died in the operation were unconscious when special forces shot them.

http://www.hrw.org/press/2002/10/russia1030.htm

That bastards are my personal enemies and terrorist supporters. I hope their activities in Russia will be stopped immediately.

Toad, "human rights" subject was raised after Helsinki conference only to have another tool to press onto USSR, and US officials already admitted that they didn't give a flying f#$k about the "opressed Jews" and dissidents - they needed a political propaganda instrument.

Toad, now it's time to decide for yourself what side you are on. Time of double-standards is over.

[Toad]

Boroda, I find your denials of history fascinating. Particularly when you tell me that I'm the one who is "a brilliant example of cold war brainwashing".

Here you go... of course, it won't agree with your "official" version.

The Artificial Famine/Genocide in Ukraine 1932-33

"In 1932, the Soviets increased the grain procurement quota for Ukraine by 44%. They were aware that this extraordinarly high quota would result in a grain shortage, therefore resulting in the inability of the Ukrainian peasant to feed themselves.

Soviet law was quite clear in that no grain could be given to feed the peasants until the quota was met. Communist party officials with the aid of military trrops and NKVD secret police units were used to move against peasants who may be hiding grain from the Soviet government. Even worse, an internal passport system was implemented to restrict movements of Ukrainian peasants so that they could not travel in search of food.

Ukrainian grain was collected and stored in grain elevators that were guarded by military units & NKVD secret police units while Ukrainians were starving in the immediate area. The actions of this Moscow instigated action was a deliberate act of genocide against the Ukrainian peasant."

********

Purges? May I suggest The Great Terror: A Reassessment by Robert Conquest?

Case Study: Stalin's Purges

By 1938, Conquest estimates that about 7 million Purge victims were in the labour/death camps, on top of the hundreds of thousands who had been slaughtered outright. In the worst camps, such as those of the Kolyma gold-mining region in the Arctic, the survival rate was just 2 or 3 percent (see the incarceration/death penalty case study). Alexander Solzhenitsyn calls the prison colonies in the Solovetsky Islands "the Arctic Auschwitz," and cites the edict of their commander, Naftaly Frenkel, which "became the supreme law of the Archipelago: 'We have to squeeze everything out of a prisoner in the first three months -- after that we don't need him anymore.'" (Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago, vol. 2, p. 49.)

*****

"Please, educate me on this subject, but, i kindly ask you - provide facts"

How about the actual order? It's on file in London.


ORDER No 001223


I think you'll also find this entire history interesting, although it deals primarily with just Latvia; Estonia and Lithuania suffered the same fate. Pay particular attention to the actual documents provided in the appendix.

]These Names Accuse

The purpose of this publication is to provide historical and documentary evidence of the facts that the genocide carried out in Soviet Russia and in the countries annexed by her is an essential part of the administrative and economic system founded by the Bolshevik party. The fate of Latvia and the other Baltic States during World War II was not an accident in foreign policy, but a carefully prepared and planned action of the Kremlin towards world domination, towards a pax sovietica.

..and...

The registration of losses of human life was continued afterwards and by January 1, 1943, the total of Latvian victims, deported or murdered by the bolsheviks, exceeded 34,000.

********

Katyn Forest? The "last reliable document"?

The Katyn Massacre

It wasn't until 1990 that Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev admitted Soviet involvement in the Katyn forest massacre. Two years later, the Russian government handed over to Polish President Lech Walesa previously secret documents showing that Soviet leader Joseph Stalin had directly ordered the killing of the Polish army officers.

If you can't face the truth, that's YOUR problem. Who was "brainwashed" again?


I'm against what the Chechens did at the Moscow Theater. It was terrorism plain and simple. There's no excuse for that act.

As I said though, your proposed "solutions" for the Chechen problem would make the most hawkish Israeli blush with shame if they were proposed for the Palestinian problem.

Your concerns for civilian casualties in Iraq during the war are ludicrous in light of what Russia did in Grozny.

Your concerns for civilian casualties during the operation to remove the Taliban from Afghanistan are ludicrous in light of what you now propose for Chechnya after Russia suffered a terrorist attack far less damaging than what happened on 9/11.

[Boroda]

Toad, again you take typical Goebbels propaganda adopted by your brainwashing machine in late-40s.

7 millions in labour camps?! What did that guy smoke?

That "order" is probably a fake, as 99% of what your propaganda poured on Baltic republics (the brightest example is the "secret protocol" to 1939 Soviet-German treaty). Anyway, I see nothing surprising in that order. Any country does such things. Now tell me how many people were deported from Latvia in 1940, and compare it to the fact that in 1944, when Soviet Army came back there were only 18 (eighteen) Jews left in Latvia. Latvia was and is now a fascist country, and what happens there now is never shown in Western media.

Katyn - well, Gorbachev always had problems with common sence. That traitor isn't an authority for me. I say - I don't know what happened in Katyn, but there is enough evidence, confirmed by US and other foreign representatives that the execution were performed by nazis in 1941-42.

Stop putting your words into my mouth. I said I am afraid of heavy civilian casualities in Afghanistan on the first day of the attack, when the only thing we were told is that "Kabul is bombed". Knowing US military habbits in Korea, Vietnam, Lybia, Serbia etc. I thought you started your favourite "bomb them to stone age" game.

As for Iraq - you killed ~150000 civilians who were far enough from front line with only purpose: to terrorise the population. And I am damn sure you will do it again if your whitehouse looney will start a new war for "democracy" that noone needs.

Russia has enough power to make Chechnya a moon surface, but we still are too sentimental and send our boys to find obvious terrorists, and trying to save so-called "civilians". And it's not your f#$king business - it's internal affair of Russian Federation. We don't make political statements regarding police actions during LA riots, so, please, be so kind to shut the f#$k up about what we do in our home.

[Toad]

OK, there was no Purge.  

There was no deliberate government generated famine in the Ukraine.  

The Soviet Union didn't deport thousands upon thousands of Estonians, Lithuanians and Latvians, killing many thousand in the process.

Gorbachev lied about Katyn Forest and the documentary proof he provided to Poland was all fake.  

I won't bother to go search for the casualty totals you were tooting about in Afghanistan, but once again they disagreed with every other source in the known world.

And I won't bother to yet again refute your totally bogus "150,000 Iraqi civilian casualties in Desert Storm" that also disagrees with every other source in the known world.

Because, after all, you are so far out of touch with reality that you can't recognize it.

The truth will set you free....... if you let it.

Originally posted by Boroda
Russia has enough power to make Chechnya a moon surface, but we still are too sentimental and send our boys to find obvious terrorists, and trying to save so-called "civilians".

You could, of course, try bouncing the rubble in Grozny with artillery for another few months like you guys did in '99. After all, EVERY SINGLE PERSON in Grozny is a terrorist, eh? Call it a Sentimental Journey!

 

Boroda:And it's not your f#$king business - it's internal affair of Russian Federation. We don't make political statements regarding police actions during LA riots, so, please, be so kind to shut the f#$k up about what we do in our home.

You make disparaging comments about everything the US does. But I'm not suprised you don't like anyone discussing what Russia does or has done. Bet you hate it when the Poles discuss Katyn, for example.

Don't know if you can get to this site, but here's a nice "after action" analysis of how Russia stepped on it's crank while wearing golf shoes in Chechnya.

Why the Russian Military Failed in Chechnya

Oh... wait... you guys had a "great success" in Chechnya, right? No more problems with THOSE guys.

And in 50 years you can simply deny it even happened!

Oh, and by the way...... if there's anyone on this board that would be making Goebbels envious... I think YOU must be the one!

[Samm]

Boroda from you statement, "Stalin was a wise man. He found the most suitable solution"

I can deduce that either you see nothing wrong with genocidal fascists, or you still believe what you were taught in your soviet history class . Tell me, was there a picture of Stalin hangin on the wall in the classroom ?

[BGBMAW]

...Yes Borada......

Please list some of your "resources " on the Iraq- And afgahn civilian causalties...

Cause when you didnt..it just makes the rest of your mouth seem isless air passing thru....


Dam ..u really dug yourself a whole with those statemnets


We stopped boming in side Bagdad becuase we kileld a coupl ehundred cicvlians....

You know why??..The diddlying Irag gov..put a transmiisin antenna on top of a fortified Bomb shelter...we bomed this shelter..it was transmitting comm to armed forces...The Command center for this plce was a few hundred yards away...

So after that,,we stopped hitting buildings close to Bagdad....

Yes I dont have the "offical" documnets of this..but neither do you about your "150,000 casultly listings....whisch i smore beleivable??

Love BiGB
xoxoxo

A  OK USA!!!!
AMerica #!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

lolol


and by the way..i may not like all the countries in the world..bu ti do love there women.........most of them....

[OIO]

All nations have done similar things.

Yes, Russia treated people like slaughter animals.
Yes, United States treated people like slaughter animals.
Yes, yada yada yada...

Soviet/Russian/USSR did all the above listed.
USA did things just as bad to their own native populations
So did Spain way back in colonial times
So did the Brits way back in their colonial times
So did the French (who continue to do so with their cousine)
So did the Chinese
So did .

Its sick the 2 of you are slinging this at each other, almost accussing or bragging or DENYING the events.

Plain and simple, its a problem from another era and its still being dealt in the same way, but NOW people are judging events from the past with MODERN morals/mindsets.

Imo, Russia now has been VERY moderate in its response... in contrast with what Cold War/WW2/WW1/Czarist russia wouldve been.


The BAD thing is that NOW we have NATION-STATES with MODERN morals/mindsets (or having to act according to those to avoid the repercussions from the international community) facing ORGANIZATIONS and INDIVIDUALS who'se mindset and morals are still back in primitive->medieval->ww2 times who have access to MODERN technology.

Or those who have nothing to lose and are led/dominated by those with such mindsets/morals.

Its clearly visible.

Israeli->Palestine conflict...years have gone by, thousands of dead MF'ers and they still cant resolve it. One side an organization led by or composed of nutbags that PLAYS on the international community's "modern mindset" while commiting atrocity after atrocity... and BENEFITING from it (because of the "modern mindset"), the other side a modern nation-state of incredibly power but RESTRAINED from using it..because of that "modern mindset"

Iraq->UN/US. Same as above.

Russia->Chechenya. Same as above. I wont deny that historically Russia has had a bit less restraint than other nations in these "modern" times.


Quite an improvement from WW2/Pre-WW2 times dont you think?

Frankly, I think its all this political correctness and international hush-hush that focuses on clawless verbal fights rather than effective ACTION that feeds fuel to these flames.

Arafat certainly plays poker with them.. Saddam has mastered the game.

On a closing thought... what do you think would happen if the US left the United Nations? Left NATO?

[Toad]

You seem to ignore the fact that there's one guy here that thinks all that stuff just didn't happen.

[OIO]

[Boroda]

Toad, I have told you many times that when I see two views on our history, one of them from Soviet side, and another one from the enemy - I will choose Soviet side. I am not going to discuss the reliability of yours or mine sources, but I don't want to agree with the enemy.

I wrote the answer on 2 screens, but I have to delete it.

[Toad]

Well, heck yes!

Why bother educating yourself with multiple, diverse history sources when you can just follow the "party line"?



Jeez, don't ever stop posting, please! You're the absolute best ever!

[StSanta]

Boroda is our enemy?

Well, what are we waiting for? Let's go to WAR!
Or maybe we should wait a year or so, so the Russians will have some time to get the big part of their troops combat-ready again.