I'm liking Russia more and more

[Staga]

Funked maybe you should read more about what happens in Chechenia:

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2000/russia_chechnya/#_1_19

The next morning, on January 21, the two men decided to visit the Zubayev family to ask for some bread. In the yard, they came upon a gruesome scene. Wakha R. related to Human Rights Watch what he saw in the yard:

What I saw was awful. All the members of the family were shot. Judging from the bullet casings, they were shot from a heavy submachine gun. Malikah and Luiza were holding their daughters. The house was still smoking, it had been burned. There were tracks of an APC in the yard. The gates were broken. Things from the house were thrown about, and all the luxurious things had been taken away. The house had been looted and the family had been killed.

They found the bodies of eight people in the yard:

Zeinap Zubayeva, the wife of Said Zubayev, aged sixty-four;
Malikah Zubayeva, daughter of Said and Zeinap Zubayev, aged forty-five;
Alina Zubayeva, daughter of Malikah Zubayeva, aged eight;
Mariet Zubayeva, second daughter of Said and Zeinap Zubayev, aged forty-three;
Ruslan Zubayev, son of Said and Zeinap Zubayev, aged thirty-five;
Luiza Zubayeva, wife of Ruslan Zubayev, aged thirty-three;
Larisa Zubayeva, daughter of Ruslan and Luzia Zubayev, aged twelve; and
Said-Magomet Zubayev, nephew of Said Zubayev, aged forty-seven.

The second daughter of Ruslan and Luiza Zubayev, eight-year-old Eliza Zubayeva, could not be found, but the two men believe that she was burned in the house. Sultan explained what they did next: "I put all the bodies in a pile, and covered them with canvas [and heavy things] so the dogs wouldn't touch them." They then heard soldiers coming and were forced to leave the yard. The men were too weak to bury the bodies after spending months in their cellar: Wakha R. told Human Rights Watch that he had lost fifteen kilograms in that period.

Wakha R. was convinced that Russian soldiers had killed his neighbors: "There is no doubt in my mind that they were killed by Russian soldiers. The Chechen fighters left the day before, and only Russian soldiers were there. Besides, there were the tracks of an APC in the yard."

I know, you're just a yank who doesn't have a clue what happens but you can learn if you will

[funkedup]

If soldiers did that, they are war criminals and should recieve the most extreme punishment.  It does not excuse the taking of hostages and does not make humorous the accidental death of said hostages.

[Toad]

Staga, I think Boroda is busy right now but I'm sure he'll be along directly to tell the "true" story of what happened in that incident.

[Samm]

Where do you think the serbs learned it from, they were soviets too .

[Staga]

War criminals? Wouldn't word "terrorists" fit better in this case?

What I find funny is that when russians kill chechen civilians nobody gives a watermelon but when chechen terrorists take russian hostages the hell breaks loose in U.S.

Then you wonder why some think you're retarded... LOL !

Nice pic from Grozny after russians searched some terrorists.

[SirLoin]

[funkedup]

Staga, "war criminals" is the term we use in English when uniformed troops (as suggested by the scanty circumstantial evidence in the example you cite) commit atrocities.  It doesn't make them any better than terrorists.

And to say nobody in the US gives a toejam about the deaths of Chechens is wrong.  Boroda has described in detail the ambiguous feelings that US government and citizens have shown towards the Chechen cause.  There are people marching in the streets of the cities here in support of Islamic causes.  I had a day's outing in the San Francisco SSR ruined last weekend due to a march by such people, including guys with Arafat headgear and "free Palestine" signs.  I think the problem is that you get you knowledge of the US on what you see on TV or on this board.  Neither one is an accurate view of reality here.

[Staga]

From dictionary:
ter·ror·ist:
One that engages in acts or an act of terrorism.

ter·ror·ism:
The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

Doesn't say anything about uniforms?

[funkedup]

I didn't say you couldn't use terrorist.  But it's a more general term.  "War criminal" is a more specific term applying to those in uniform.  Also, what about "often for ideological or political reasons."  The case you described sounds more like they were murdering out of hate and greed.

[Staga]

In this case you could use word "Terrorist" when you're talking about Russia.

uups you're friends with russia now, guess we better sweep that issue under the carpet.


hehe if you look how dictionary describes word "terrorism" it looks like you could use that word when talking about Israeli government too

[bounder]

Originally posted by ra


Let's see:  these a-holes belong to a cult which tells them that if they blow up 800 innocent civilians they will get a free trip to paradise.   However, the rules say they can't get there wrapped in pigskin.  So this move tells the rest of the bloodthirsty vermin that just because you can kill women and children doesn't mean you'll necessarily get the 72 virgins.  I'd say that's some disincentive there.  

You seem to think this move on the theater goers was politically legitimate.
Sheesh.

ra

English comprehension not your strong point then?

Let me spell it out for you


I utterly condemn the individuals and organisations who did this:


a)Took 800 civilians hostage and murdered many of them


and this

b)Murdered, raped and tortured over 100,000 civilians and bombed the city of Grozny to dust killing 25,000 civilians in just one month. (january as it happens)

So just to make sure you really understand ra:

I don't think the theatre hijacking was a legitimate political procedure. I think it was a last ditch attempt by Chechens, filled with hate for what russia has done to them, to return the favour. Thankfully they failed where the security forces succeeded.

But wrapping them in pigskin or pissing on their graves or dissing their dead mothers/children/sisters/brothers etc is only going to stir up more bad feeling.

"Don't bomb us or we'll wrap your corpses in pigskin? "

You think they believe in all that hocus pocus voodoo crap? Their religion is just a cover for revenge, and like all religions it will stretch to fit the demands made upon it. Maybe when they execute christians 'terrorists' in Saudi Arabia they should decapitate them and bury them at crossroads to try and heal the wounds and make a peaceful settlement?

Killing people is ok if God is on your side, right? Unfortunately not, but people would have you believe it.


So wrapping them in pigskin may make you feel better, but who gives a monkeys  about that anyway?

[Staga]

btw Funked I like you (mostly because you have a cool car), It's just so fun to yank your chain sometimes

[J_A_B]

Should I start posting links to various movies scattered around the internet of Chechens abusing prisoners and cutting their throats and such?  You know, the ones they film for bragging purposes?

Hardly innocent "freedom fighters".   They look more like bloodthirsty killers.

The Russian military may treat them badly, and commit "war crimes" against them, but it's not unprovoked.  Neither side is "clean".

J_A_B

[funkedup]

Originally posted by Staga
btw Funked I like you (mostly because you have a cool car), It's just so fun to yank your chain sometimes

Staga I'm going to blush...

I love you too man!

Chain yanking is great sport IMHO.  We do this all the time where I work.  As my dad was once told by a bunch of older factory workers when he was a rookie in the plant:  "If we didn't like you, we wouldn't say anything at all."



PS I bought my car to attract CHICKS not male Finnish video game nerds.  Maybe I need to get a new car?????  

[Staga]

Originally posted by J_A_B
Neither side is "clean".

Amen.