Author Topic: Mirrors !?!  (Read 423 times)

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Mirrors !?!
« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2002, 06:10:31 AM »
Why would anyone need or even want mirrors with the AH 6 view?

Offline airbull

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Mirrors !?!
« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2002, 06:30:54 AM »
Dint i read someware that a ww2 pilot said if u see them in your rear mirror your already as good as dead !!!!:eek:
'Crashed slow-rolling near ground. Bad show'

http://www.thefewsquadron.co.uk

Offline Creamo

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Mirrors !?!
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2002, 07:15:24 AM »
Exactly GRUN, but at least it saves the X45 one hat look which could put me on X45 purchase #6, not 7.

Forget reality airbull, I'd like to not see a game model a

.

or a
__

as a poster said recently regarding the six view.

Seeing the  La7 icon in the mirror would be OK though.

Offline phaetn

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Mirrors !?!
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2002, 08:03:20 AM »
Well I posted this in the other thread about mirrors, but it seems more appropriate here, so I'll stick it in this thread, too:

----
TK's latest flight sim (the developer of EAW, by the way) is a 1960s era jet sim. Flyable are the F-4, Phantom F-104 Starfighter and others. The reason I bring it up is that it has mirrors on the cockpits, and they work really well.

A mirror WILL NOT save you from a bogey on your six that you didn't know about, because by the time you see it you're toast.

It does add a lot to immersion, and a sense of 3d space, however, since you see ground objects, or the horizon, or clouds and other things reflected in it. Especially in AH, when there are often periods where all you see from the forward view or 45 degree up view is blue sky, also seeing the location of the horizon in a reflection, or how quickly the landscape is scrolling past, would be helpful. In TK's Strike Fighters: Project 1, there are a lot of vapour trails so it's helpful for spotting those, too.

While there is a hit to framerates, it's not the old days where Voodoo1s were struggling to show the forward view with full details in GPL, and then enabling the mirrors made it a slide show. Video cards have buckets of processing power and texture memory compared to back then, and it could be implemented easily. Of course, they could be a user option.

[ADDENDUM]
Pyro, I'm surprised to hear your comment that it would be a total FPS spoiler like GPL.  While there would definitely be a performance hit -- no question -- I simply can't see it being like a GPL era game where 3D cards were in their infancy and both CPUs and cards were being overly taxed.  While an absolutely wonderful game, GPL even had lots of trouble dealing with all the AI cars on the same part of the track at once (starts were a slide show).  Playing it with a modern rig makes it smooth as silk.   If you check out TK's SF:P1 (just arrived on the shelves within the past two weeks) you'll see that they mirrors can be easily integrated and look gorgeous.  I know that AH is targeting different hardware requirements, however.

That said, Pyro, great to hear from you on the boards!!! :)  Some of us were getting nervous about your whereabouts.
[/addendum]

FWIW, I liked the direct 6 view as looking up in the mirror in Spits in AW. While I didn't play AW much at all, that was one aspect that I really found kind of neat. They got around the frame rate hit by not rendering two different scenes on the same display (i.e. one couldn't see around the mirror, it only showed the reflection). It was a clever, low-tech application, that dealt with the "Linda Blair" dead-six view that many don't like.

Cheers,
phaetn

Offline Creamo

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Mirrors !?!
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2002, 08:18:24 AM »
A mirror WILL NOT save you from a bogey on your six that you didn't know about, because by the time you see it you're toast.

In AH, a HUGE RED ICON AT any icon enabled range distance will be noticed in the mirror, obviously.

 You just check 6 outside the canopy via the AH views. It's a mere hat switch nuisance/ unrealism feature.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2002, 08:21:23 AM by Creamo »

Offline phaetn

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Mirrors !?!
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2002, 08:44:36 AM »
HOLY CRAP!

Looking at Pyro's post (that I had responded to) I had assumed that this was a relatively new thread.

Looking at the date, though, he posted that in Nov. 2000.  TWO YEARS ago.  Yikes!!!!  Vid cards and CPUs have advanced a lot even since that post.  The "good while" he was talking about could well have easily passed by now, no?

DamnedCM, what the hell were you doing digging this up from the bowels of the earth? ;)  Seriously, its contents are no longer relevant in the current context of AH.

Creamo, it needn't be a hat switch/unrealism feature.  It would be integrated into current views.  That way you see both what's ahead (not blocked by the mirror) and what's reflected.  I'm not suggesting the AW implementation at all, but a much  more realistic one now that we have the horsepower to do it.    Icons need not be enabled in the mirror view.

Take a spin in TK's SF:P1 (published by Strategy First) and you'll see just how compelling mirrors can be.  

[edit]
 Actually, let me stick in a couple of screenies for your edification:

 
Click on images to expand.

You'll note in the first, just the "cool effect" of mirrors.  This is in widely expanded field of view, zoomed back to max in an F-4 cockpit.  The default FOV is much further forward, and cuts into the two side mirrors, though the top one is still fully visible.

In the second image (an F-104 Starfighter at default FOV), you'll note that it's impossible to see one's orientation in the forward view because of inclement weather (picture AH blue sky that is also mostly featureless).  A quick glance at the mirrors, which are quite close at hand, immediately shows your position relative to the ground because you can see the runway, as well as your changing aspect and can serve as a rough gauge of speed -- all the while you haven't had to glance down into the cockpit to look at a horizon ball, VSI, or airspeed indicator.  This works equally well if you're at a higher altitude and see terrain or the horizon reflected, not just a ground object.

While a mirror won't stop you getting bounced, if there was a bogey there there that was in slight lag pursuit, it can help to monitor his orientation during ACM while you can still keep an eye on your forward view.  According to how he's moving in the mirror, you can see if you're gaining angles or if he's going to slip into lead pursuit, or if he's turned away, etc. etc.   My preference would be that icons are not shown in the mirror.

It's not a substitute for turning your head to look for a bogey, but it does impart more info about your aircraft's state, and we desperately need that in a game where we don't have any seat of the pants feedback.  If you can't see the landscape or clouds, you have little idea as to what's going on without looking at the instruments or switching view to look at a fixed object, except for your own anticpation of the manouver you're performing.  That's highly unrealistic, but a limit we have to accept.  

I'd like to hear other comments from people who have actually experience both methods, to hear their reaction.
[/edit]

Streakeagle, you make an excellent point, if mirrors weren't useful, pilots wouldn't still be using them.  That's not to say they spend all their time looking at them, but it's a lot easier to move your eyes a bit then it is to turn your whole head around.  Even in AH, it would be less disruptive and disorienting than switching your view.

Cheers,
phaetn
« Last Edit: November 09, 2002, 09:43:55 AM by phaetn »

Offline lazs2

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Mirrors !?!
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2002, 09:14:53 AM »
I am not -lazs-
lazs