Author Topic: Advice on reversals in Spit  (Read 424 times)

Offline LoneStarBuckeye

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 336
      • http://None
Advice on reversals in Spit
« on: November 10, 2002, 11:04:03 AM »
When flying a Spit, I find that by far the most problematic situation is getting another like plane (e.g., N1K2-J, Zero, another Spit) with equal or slightly more energy glued to my six.  This is not surprising, perhaps, because that situation is bound to be problematic in any plane and should be avoided, if possible.  I try to be diligent with my SA, but in a frenetic furball I often find myself in the situation I described.  

I can sometimes make my attacker miss by using scissor-like evasives (e.g., the "falling leaf") for long enough to get some help from a teammate, but what I would really like to read is advice on how to reverse the enemy in that situation.  I know it can be done (at least to mediocre pilots like myself), because I have been victimized recently by just this sort of reversal ( Leviathn).

I have heard reversing a bandit on your 6 referred to as "the black art of ACM."  If someone would provide a bit of insight into this art, I would be most grateful.

Thanks!

- JNOV
« Last Edit: November 10, 2002, 11:06:10 AM by LoneStarBuckeye »

Offline Fancy

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 294
Advice on reversals in Spit
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2002, 11:07:15 AM »
No way dude....TOP SECRET!!!!










































Besides, I have no idea how's it done either.

Offline ccvi

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2074
      • http://www.carl-eike-hofmeister.de/
Advice on reversals in Spit
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2002, 12:43:24 PM »
Spit-Dweebs deserve to die. Don't expect advice ;)

Offline SpinDoc1

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 473
Advice on reversals in Spit
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2002, 12:55:40 PM »
Hey Lone Star,

I have been flying the spitfire quite a bit lately, and am not very good as of late... As for the reversal, I can describe it in another plane, the 190 D9. Not quite the same flight characteristics, but it serves as an example. I was flying approximately 12k, level, not paying very much attention. I heard the faint whistle of 262 engines, and then a few tracers and the thud of those 30mm. I immediately snap rolled left, and ended up letting the 262 overshoot, upon maintaining level flight I shot off his wing at about d500. While this was probably one of my most exciting, quick manuevers ever, it taught me an important lesson. You need to do what the enemy does not expect. In a spitfire, most people will assume you are going to roll and pull in one direction, and you'll do it hard. At that point they can either go vertical and loop down on top of you, or lead you and waste some control surfaces. In a spit, I like to pull a looping barrel roll with some rudder input. This creates a situation where, if they are fast enough, they will shoot right through the 'tunnel' shape you've just created and you can end up on their six. Think of it like a roller coaster, where the loop is like a forward shaped spiral. What this does is create some neat angles and hopefully catches them off guard. The 262 thought he had a good bounce, I noticed it quick enough, barrel rolled down and back up, and he was slow enough for a great shot on the left wing ( AGJV44, was a tough break). Hope this helps, practice it some, the roll is easy to learn, the shooting afterward will take some practice.

AKSpnDoc
Spin Doc's Aces High VR Video channel! https://youtu.be/BKk7_OOHkgI

Offline LoneStarBuckeye

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 336
      • http://None
Advice on reversals in Spit
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2002, 01:21:52 PM »
SpinDoc:

Thanks for the advice.  I often try the barrel roll that you describe, but I find (and maybe I'm just not doing it right) that it only works if there is a considerable energy differential between me and the bandit (and in that case he is gone so quickly that I never seem to be able to land any hits after he overshoots).  It seems that if the enemy's energy state is close to mine, he just follows me through the maneuver or pulls up and waits for me to finish.

I wish I had some film of the times that I've been reversed in situations like the one I describe.  I can't remember exactly what happened in any of the cases, but it seems to me that the enemy typically begins with a semi-sharp (but not max-g) break (perhaps slightly downwards to gain speed for maneuvering), followed quickly by some sort of out of plane maneuver in the other direction (maybe a barrel roll?)  Perhpas part of the reason it works is because my response to the initial break is to pull lead, seeking a gun solution, and thereby generating some angle-off-tail for the enemy to work with.  

What I can't recall is the general form of the defensive maneuver that comes after the initial break.  I have been so busy trying to regain a firing solution that I haven't paid close attention to the overall structure of the defensive maneuvering.

- JNOV

Offline ccvi

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2074
      • http://www.carl-eike-hofmeister.de/
Advice on reversals in Spit
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2002, 01:46:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DaLadyzMon
I heard the faint whistle of 262 engines, and then a few tracers and the thud of those 30mm.


You survived a 30mm hit?!

Offline Innominate

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2702
Advice on reversals in Spit
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2002, 01:56:28 PM »
The first rule of defensive flying is that, even if you do everything right, you can still die.

A barrel roll is a trick maneuver, and if your pursuer sees it coming, odds are it will only make your situation worse.  Best way to start a barrel roll is by a max-g turn held for a few seconds. (So that you're blacked out, and your pursuer is at least at the very edge of it)  This gives you a better chance of your pursuer thinking that you kept turning.

If your pursuer doesn't have a big e-advantage, and the barrel roll doesnt help,  you're probably going to be stuck trying to force a scissors.(unless you're in a more maneuverable plane)

However, if you're being BnZ'd, a split S is an excellent way to escape, and a simple quick break turn will spoil any shot, after which you can revserse for the snapshot.

Offline WldThing

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2366
Advice on reversals in Spit
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2002, 02:37:03 PM »
Barrel Rolls have to be practiced, as well as reversals.  If your barrel roll fails there are always other ways to not become an easier target for the con, that he thinks hes smart by not following you into the turn.  

Reversals take a lil while to get them right, smart people wont go straight up after they come down on you, they will keep going straight or climb very slowly, but in other cases people will go straight up.  You can make your self even a bigger target if you lose him in that climb up, a good aim is a most in those sort of situations, your looking at spraying from 400-500 yards in most cases, depending of the speed of the con.

Timing has to be right, in my case there is a certain view that i have to have the con in my sight for me to pull of a good reversal, but then my aim really sucks so at least it scares him down, which BnZ wont become a factor.


My tip is practice practice practice.  You will die many times before you figure how to do it.  So Good Luck! :)

Offline SpinDoc1

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 473
Advice on reversals in Spit
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2002, 02:44:01 PM »
Hehe ccvi, no I didn't get hit, I meant he was so close I could hear the guns firing. I have a whole custom sound set and the 30mm are just plain scary. Nothing comes close to scaring me out of my seat. Good point though, the way I worded it, it sounds like I DID get hit
AKSpnDoc
Spin Doc's Aces High VR Video channel! https://youtu.be/BKk7_OOHkgI

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
Advice on reversals in Spit
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2002, 07:32:05 PM »
For good examples of reversals, check out some of Drex's and Leviathn's films that have been posted at Furball Central.  


Ack-Ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline ALF

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1208
      • http://www.mikethinks.com
Advice on reversals in Spit
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2002, 10:04:09 PM »
One key to evasion in ANY plane is knowing when your opponent CANT see you...thats when in a turn and he is firing.  Because you must lead your enemy, if he is firing over your nose (or worse...hitting you), you IMMEDIATLY REVERSE using alierons, rudder and a heafty amount of body english.

In the best of all worlds, by the time he realizes ou arnt where he expects, you have enough seperation to escape, or at least meet on a more equal footing.

The key is you must pull a G or two to force his lead to be sufficient, and you must be looking BACK to see him fire.

Offline LoneStarBuckeye

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 336
      • http://None
Advice on reversals in Spit
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2002, 07:13:56 AM »
Thanks all for the helpful posts.

- JNOV

Offline spiegel

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 100
Advice on reversals in Spit
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2002, 01:46:17 PM »
Quote
No way dude....TOP SECRET!!!!


yah us spit(dweebs)pilots dont give stuff like that out...:p