Author Topic: Topic for today: Challenging the status quo  (Read 266 times)

Offline gofaster

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Topic for today: Challenging the status quo
« on: November 13, 2002, 12:30:58 PM »
Challenging the status quo can be good, if good things come from it.  Iran is now at a cross roads culturally and politically.  Once again, the question is "how should religion be interpreted?", and the tricky part of the answer comes from the fact that religion has become the key component of government policy.  I thought it interesting that the head of the judiciary committee is a religious figure.

If the sentence stands, then Iran could have its own Steven Biko.  

Voice your opinion, good, bad, or indifferent.  After all, we live in a free society and you just might be able to get college credit for this. :)

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Iranian Scholar Refuses to Appeal
Wed Nov 13, 7:13 AM ET
By ALI AKBAR DAREINI, Associated Press Writer

TEHRAN, Iran (AP) - A university professor sentenced to death for insulting Islam has refused to appeal the sentence, challenging the hard-line judiciary to carry out the execution, his lawyer said Wednesday.
 

The verdict against Hashem Aghajari touched off days of demonstrations in Iran. In his first comments on the case, Iran's pro-reform president said Wednesday the verdict against him "never should have been issued at all" and urged that the case be "settled in a favorable manner to avoid any problems in the country."


"Under the current circumstances, no measures should be taken that promote tension," President Mohammad Khatami (news - web sites) said after a Cabinet meeting, according to state-run television.


The death sentence has become a center of contention between hard-liners who control the police, judiciary and other powerful bodies and reformers calling for the loosening of social and political restrictions in Iran's Islamic regime.


Thousands of university students took to the streets to protest the verdict, and demonstrations continued Wednesday at universities in Tehran. Nearly two-thirds of the reformist-dominated parliament called Sunday for the sentence to be overturned.


Aghajari's lawyer, Saleh Nikbakht, said his client "has written to me that he doesn't allow me to appeal the sentence."


In his letter, Aghajari said, "I should have died when I lost my leg defending my country (during the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war) but I've lived two decades more ... If the death verdict is true, let them carry it out, and if it is wrong, then judiciary needs to work on its shortcomings," Nikbakht told a news conference in Tehran.


The verdict was issued a week ago after a closed trial without a jury. It will be considered final on Dec. 2 unless Aghajari appeals, the prosecutor general decides that the verdict is against legal procedures, or the judge admits he issued a wrong verdict, Nikbakht said. Once a death sentence is final, it is usually carried out within weeks.


Aghajari, a history professor, was convicted of insulting the Prophet Muhammad and questioning the hard-line clergy's interpretation of Islam.


He was charged after a giving a speech in the western city of Hamedan in June, saying each new generation should be able to interpret Islam on its own. He criticized the clerical establishment for considering the interpretations of previous clerics as sacred.


His comments enraged hard-liners, who organized street demonstrations in several Iranian cities and urged the courts to prosecute Aghajari.

Khatami on Wednesday called Aghajari's conviction "incorrect," saying, "personally I don't accept such decisions."

"When it comes to beliefs, a verdict can't be issued easily, especially about a person with a clean record," he said.

The lawyer, Nikbakht, called the verdict politically motivated. But the head of the conservative judiciary, Ayatollah Mahmoud Hashemi Shahroudi, has dismissed criticism of the verdict as "ignorant."
« Last Edit: November 13, 2002, 12:34:04 PM by gofaster »

Offline fd ski

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Topic for today: Challenging the status quo
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2002, 12:42:42 PM »
Guy sure has balls.

Wish we would do more to support reformist movement in Iran....
Lumping them into Axis of Evil was misguided at best.

Offline ra

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Topic for today: Challenging the status quo
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2002, 01:44:08 PM »
Quote
and the tricky part of the answer comes from the fact that religion has become the key component of government policy. I thought it interesting that the head of the judiciary committee is a religious figure.


If I recall correctly Iran adapted the Koran as its constitution, so the whole government is basically a religious institution, including the legal system.

Quote
Lumping them into Axis of Evil was misguided at best.


Iran belongs in the axis of evil.  There was relative peace between Israel and the Palestinians thoughout the 90's.  Iran was the single country most responsible for sabotaging any chance for peace in that region.  They used their money and influence to make sure Arafat the Reptile didn't agree to any peaceful resolution with Barak at Camp David.  They train and supply the suicide bombers of Hamas.  Iran is not an Arab country, but they use the conflict in the region to maximize Arab hatred in the hopes of spreading their Islamic revolution.

ra

Offline Pongo

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Topic for today: Challenging the status quo
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2002, 01:53:19 PM »
WOW
interesting post.
Our lives are so friggen easy..what colour SUV will we buy..
People are dieing for thier freedom all over this planet.
Looks like the counter revolution is under way in Iran.

Offline gofaster

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Topic for today: Challenging the status quo
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2002, 02:53:24 PM »
I see this ending two ways:

(a) Iran strengthens its grip on the populace ala China and Tianamen Square, or
(b) Iran loosens its position of religious interpretation for effective government and begins to take steps towards a more open culture, quite possibly the first time that's happened without a civil war.  

Or do you think Iran is heading for a civil war?  If so, what impact would that have on stability in the Middle East, particularly with the troubles in Iraq?  It would certainly make an interesting political picture in the war against al Queyda and terrorism in general.

Offline Sandman

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Topic for today: Challenging the status quo
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2002, 06:17:20 PM »
Non-conformity is a sin.
sand

Offline Animal

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Topic for today: Challenging the status quo
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2002, 06:20:58 PM »
I thought this was going to be a sociological thread.

Politics are geting tiresome around here.

Offline gofaster

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Topic for today: Challenging the status quo
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2002, 08:37:56 AM »
And compare it to today's story about the US President's position regarding religion and public figures.  The quote I've placed in bold is quite possibly the best thing the President has said since he stood at Ground Zero and declared "I can hear you, America can hear you, and pretty soon the whole world will hear you."

Notice the irony farther in the story: Falwell calls Prophet Mohammed a man of war, and an Iranian cleric gets outraged and calls for Falwell's death, while other Muslims start rioting.  Ok, that's a good way to bolster the argument that Islam is a religion of peace.

====================

Bush Says Islam Is Peaceful Faith
Wed Nov 13, 7:35 PM ET
By SCOTT LINDLAW, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) - President Bush characterized Islam as a peaceful faith Wednesday, seeking to distance himself from controversial remarks by conservative Christian leaders Pat Robertson and the Rev. Jerry Falwell.

"Some of the comments that have been uttered about Islam do not reflect the sentiments of my government or the sentiments of most Americans," Bush told reporters as he met with U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan (news - web sites). "Islam, as practiced by the vast majority of people, is a peaceful religion, a religion that respects others."


"Ours is a country based upon tolerance, Mr. Secretary General," Bush said. "And we respect the faith and we welcome people of all faiths in America, and we're not going to let the war on terror or terrorists cause us to change our values."


Though Bush never mentioned their names, his remarks came in response to recent comments by Robertson and Falwell, the administration said.


Robertson, on his Christian Broadcasting Network, said Jews in the United States should "wake up, open their eyes and read what is being said about them."


"This is worse than the Nazis," Robertson said Monday. "Adolf Hitler was bad, but what the Muslims want to do to the Jews is worse."


Falwell, in a recent interview with CBS' "60 Minutes," said he had concluded from reading Muslim and non-Muslim writers that the Prophet Muhammad "was a violent man, a man of war." "I think Muhammad was a terrorist," the conservative Baptist minister said.


Muslims were outraged. An Iranian cleric called for his death while a general strike called to protest his comments in Bombay, India, turned into a riot, and five people were killed.
Falwell later apologized.


A senior official said the administration recognized that such comments had angered Muslims abroad and caused them to question whether they represent the opinions of the White House and of the American people.


The issue is particularly delicate for the Bush administration, because such Christian leaders are seen as Bush allies, and the remarks come at a time when Iraqi President Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) is trying to fan anti-American sentiment by charging Bush hates Islam. A recent tape apparently made by Osama bin Laden (news - web sites) also called on Muslims to take up arms against the United States.


Bush has often said he believes Islam is a peaceful religion and has reached out to Muslims repeatedly since Sept. 11.

But given the remarks by Falwell and Robertson, Bush felt he needed to go a step further and repudiate the comments, the official said, speaking on condition of anonymity.

Bush's remarks came on the same day the Council on American-Islamic Relations urged Bush to repudiate anti-Islamic rhetoric, citing comments by Falwell and others.

"It is time for the president to step up to the plate on the issue of Islamophobia in America," said the group's board chairman, Omar Ahmad. "Merely repeating the mantra that Islam is a 'religion of peace' does little to stem the rising tide of anti-Muslim hate or to mitigate the negative impact that hate has on Muslim families."
« Last Edit: November 14, 2002, 08:40:39 AM by gofaster »

Offline Thud

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Topic for today: Challenging the status quo
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2002, 10:58:35 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by ra
There was relative peace between Israel and the Palestinians thoughout the 90's.  Iran was the single country most responsible for sabotaging any chance for peace in that region.  They used their money and influence to make sure Arafat the Reptile didn't agree to any peaceful resolution with Barak at Camp David.  They train and supply the suicide bombers of Hamas.  
ra


Better read up on stuff before spewing your fabricated stories, you know as well as I do that Arafat wanted to accept peace, as he did before by means of Oslo, but it was clear that Israel would not comply with any agreement concerning withdrawal as promised. Much like the comparable events before the CD meeting when Israel blatantly ignored their promises made in Oslo (using the pretext of terrorist attacks, which means that there never will be peace in the ME cause there'll always be violent minorities). Arafat may be a weakling suffering from serious indeciseveness and loads of halfhearted measures but noone in their right minds can state in all seriousness that he encourages violence on purpose.
Wait till Netanyahu gets reelected, then it'll become even more clear which side does more to sandbag the peace-process. Never could imagine that there could be an Israeli PM who would be even a bigger extremist warmonger than Sharon, well I was wrong... sadly.

Offline Dowding (Work)

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Topic for today: Challenging the status quo
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2002, 11:03:37 AM »
Religion is a tool of conquest, given meaning because we can afford to give it meaning, in the midst of our pampered lives.

Offline Ripsnort

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Topic for today: Challenging the status quo
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2002, 11:20:17 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding (Work)
Religion is a tool of conquest...


When abused...

Offline ra

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Topic for today: Challenging the status quo
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2002, 11:33:30 AM »
Quote
Better read up on stuff before spewing your fabricated stories, you know as well as I do that Arafat wanted to accept peace, as he did before by means of Oslo, but it was clear that Israel would not comply with any agreement concerning withdrawal as promised. Much like the comparable events before the CD meeting when Israel blatantly ignored their promises made in Oslo (using the pretext of terrorist attacks, which means that there never will be peace in the ME cause there'll always be violent minorities). Arafat may be a weakling suffering from serious indeciseveness and loads of halfhearted measures but noone in their right minds can state in all seriousness that he encourages violence on purpose.


Exactly who are you to tell me what I know?  I know Arafat is a world-class crook, when he gets thrown out he'll probably retire to a palace in Europe with millions of dollars which were meant for his people.  If he knew he couldn't trust the Israelis to live up to their end of the agreement, why go to Camp David at all?  Is the food that good there?  And if you think there is no connection between he and many of the terrorists, how do you explain his bunkmates during the last Israeli seige of his headquarters?  

There was less violence in the area when Netanyahu was PM.  The poop hit the fan when Barak showed a willingness to actually give the PA what they claim to want.  Forces outside the area, especially Iran, are using the Palestinian issue purely as a weapon to use against Israel, and Arafat is merely a tool to that end.

ra

Offline gofaster

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Topic for today: Challenging the status quo
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2002, 11:34:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding (Work)
Religion is a tool of conquest, given meaning because we can afford to give it meaning, in the midst of our pampered lives.


Yes, we've seen it before.  The Crusades were started by a religious fanatic to lead orphans into the Holy Land to oust the Muslims who had allowed passage to the Christian shrines freely.  Unfortunately, the Christians didn't want the land to be ruled by Islamic kings and the European nobility jumped on the bandwagon as a way to (a) achieve wealth through conquest and (b) prove their loyalty to the politically powerful Catholic church.

The conquistidors or Spain had their own agenda of wealth and conquest.

Then again, when the Nazis targeted the Jewish peoples, and then again with Milosovic started the religious/ethnic cleansing war in the former Yugoslavia republics.

But the US wasn't immune.  Its had its own share of religious persecution.  And I don't mean the troubles that drove the Mormons westward.  I'm talking about the Hawaiian kings who were forbidden from surfing (!) because of its ties to the Hawaiian religious beliefs.  The blame for that belongs to the American missionaries trying to convert the islanders to Christianity.

Most recently, its been Osama bin Laden warping Islam to suit his needs.  But whereas the examples I've listed above had obvious money-generating interests (except for in Hawaii),  I can't figure out what it is the al Queyda is attempting to capture or steal for conversion into money.

But I think we're slipping off-topic a bit.

Given the mix of religion, government, and culture in Iran, is there a possibility that Iran will eventually separate Church from State?  Or will it be caught up in some sort of mix of Islam and dictatorship ala Iraq, where the supreme leader is seen as being blessed by Mohammed and empowered to rule the people of the country?

More importantly, how will this impact OPEC and the all-important oil shipments?