Author Topic: That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?  (Read 1213 times)

Offline Innominate

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That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2002, 02:39:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Urchin
However, I still think the plane plays a larger role than the pilot in 'dissimilar' combat.


Definitly true, although mainly an MA issue.

There are some pilots who are good enough that they can win even when thier plane is severely outclassed.  These guys are relativly rare.

The majority of players(the average ones) are all very closely matched, so the plane being flown is more often than not  the edge needed to come out ahead.  For these players, flying anything but the best planes is prettymuch a requirement to succeed.

In the MA, you are punished for not flying the best planes, and rewarded for avoiding a challenge.

Offline Kweassa

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That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2002, 02:46:05 PM »
My sig says it all.

 Pilots are confined to the metallic shell they sit in. A rookie in a P-51D might not be able to get a lot of kills, but if he knows just the basics he'd never ever get shot down by anyone in a Zero, or any other plane as a matter of fcact, be it Sakai or Nishizawa.

 The fact that MA is a "game", is the only reason there are enough "weakspots" for good pilots to dig into against others in superior planes.

 Humans are amazing beings. But they are as amazing as they can afford to be. Besides, they're very unstable, too.

 The only ways to negate disadvantages in the plane itself is  through cooperation, and/or securing tactical advantages before the battle even begins. Otherwise if "pilot factor" was really that important in actual history, there'd practically be no need for evolution in tactics.

 It's a proven fact that only a handful ever become a "pilot" enough to boast "it's the man, not the machine".

Offline BlckMgk

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That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2002, 02:52:41 PM »
I guess youd have to calrify something here, as Inno kinda hit right on with. If its the same plane, then its pilot. But different planes give different advantages, not every plane is equal. It becomes the pilot being able to play to his planes strengths and his enemy's weakness. This includes not fighting every fight, because a good Pilot knows when he'll be able to surivive a situation or not.

Urchin your example is similar to something along this:
Two marksman are being judge on how well they shoot a target from 100 yards away. One is Given a Rifle with a scope (given all other factors with scope allignment are on), and the other a rifle with no scope. Now who do you assume will hit their target more accurate?

Different planes give obvious advantages in certain aspects maybe even all espects over some planes. Now though its the pilot who makes a descion that helps him overcome the other plane.

-BlckMgk

Offline Urchin

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That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2002, 02:58:06 PM »
I'd agree, except you don't often get a choice in which fights you take part in.  How often can a 109E4 decline to fight an La-7?  Or a Spit9?  Or a N1K2?  Or practically anything else, for that matter.

Also, not all planes have advantages.  Consider a pilot trying to choose between a 109F4 and a Spit IX.  Both planes will out turn an La-7, so thats not an issue.  Both planes will be out turned by a N1K2, so that isn't an issue.  One plane climbs significantly better than the other, accelerates significantly better than the other, turns better than the other, and is significantly faster at high altitudes.  It also has far more firepower.  Which plane should the pilot choose?  Well, if each plane had advantages, it might be a tough choice.  But one plane is beter at everything that the other, so he picks the Spit IX.

Offline Saurdaukar

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That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2002, 03:03:14 PM »
The pilot is the determining factor in most engagements.  Even when some people (including myself) whine about how certain planes are incapable of being outflown in certain situations, the pilot of the plane in the disadvantaged position shouldnt have gotten himself there in the first place.

Offline Ecliptik

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That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2002, 03:56:09 PM »
Quote
The Flakpansie holds every advantage over the M16, which is why it is used approximately 4 times more often.


Bad example, since neither vehicle was built to fight other vehicles anyway.  Besides, in engagements between ground vehicles (in real life) "operator skill" plainly accounts for far less in a one-on-one engagement than the type of vehicle.  If it were a single Russian T-55 against an Abrams M1A1, I'd bet on the Abrams every time.  However, when you extend the battle into an entire battalion of T-55's against a battalion of M1's, then while the Abrams still have the material advantage, the tactical abilities of the group commanders play much more influential roles than in the 1 vs. 1 case.  ;)

Osties are used more because they are more survivable against attacking aircraft, as opposed to dying from the first few hits like the tissue-armored M-16's.  However, I personally believe that for the purpose of defending an area, such as an airstrip, a group of M-16's are considerably more effective since they are far more capable of hitting aircraft that aren't flying directly at them.

Oh yeah, back to the actual topic.  :D

I'm going to lean toward pilot skill (and prudence) and say 50/30/20 pilot/plane/luck.  In my experience, in a solo engagement between two pilots of dead-even ACM skill, SA, reflexes and quick-thinking, and both with an equal knowledge of how to exploit weaknesses and emphasize strengths, the pilot at the initial disadvantage should always be able to at least force a stalemate, as long as the difference in planes isn't TOO pronounced  (If it's like a Pony vs. a Hurri I, then that 30% for the plane gets some added weighting in the average :) ).
And as always, that luck factor is there, like if one pilot receives unlikely, but ultimately fatally bad damage from a low-probability snapshot during the fight, such as a pilot wound, radiator hit or fuel leak.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2002, 04:13:30 PM by Ecliptik »

Offline Saintaw

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That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2002, 04:20:34 PM »
Some days I shine in an older plane . some days I stink in any perks. some days I stink in both.
For me it's mostly the mood I start to play in and the situations I find myself in.

I get shot down as much by L33tMan in his la7 than by Lev in his SpitV (to keep the same example). Of course, in the MA... I'll feel more comforteable in a fast plane, but that's another topic :)
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Offline Urchin

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That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2002, 04:28:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Saurdaukar
The pilot is the determining factor in most engagements.  Even when some people (including myself) whine about how certain planes are incapable of being outflown in certain situations, the pilot of the plane in the disadvantaged position shouldnt have gotten himself there in the first place.


So... the very best pilots are the ones that never leave the ground?  I saw this, because if you are flying something other than an La-7, Spit IX, or N1K2, you are putting yourself in a 'disadvantaged' situation just by taking off.

Offline Innominate

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That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2002, 04:35:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Urchin
So... the very best pilots are the ones that never leave the ground?  I saw this, because if you are flying something other than an La-7, Spit IX, or N1K2, you are putting yourself in a 'disadvantaged' situation just by taking off.


Wow, a whine with the best of em.

I can agree to a point though.  It still bugs me that someone with 200 kills and 100 deaths in an la7, ends up with the same score as someone with 200 kills and 100 deaths in a P-40.

The only real reason to fly the challenging planes is perks, which may be redeemed to either fly the 262, or to be punished for flying a perk prop plane.  Hardly worth the penealty most of the time.
(By "real reason" I mean a reason which shows in the game, as opposed to simply what the player happens to think.  i.e. There are lots of other reasons, which come down to individual preference, such as being ashamed to fly an la7, or simply liking a certain plane)

Offline Fatty

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That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2002, 04:40:42 PM »
See?  I told you.

Offline Karnak

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That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2002, 04:48:25 PM »
What, in the end, is the point of this?  It doesn't matter at all and is simply stating the self evident that some aircraft are better than others and as such bring advantages to the table.

I fly the Mosquito alot, frequently as a fighter.  However, in doing so I know that I am taking a voluntary disadvantage to every La-7, Typhoon, Bf109, ect, ect that I might meet.  If I always wanted to be equal of better off than my opponents I would always fly a P-51D, La-7, Bf109G-10, Fw190D-9 or Typhoon, but I want to fly aircraft that interest me and so I take a disadvantage.

What's to complain about?
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Offline Animal

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That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2002, 04:51:19 PM »
So this is what it sounds like... when dorks whine.

Offline Innominate

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That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2002, 04:51:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
What's to complain about?


Flying late war monsters is rewarded, while flying early war planes is punished.  It should be the other way around, at least for everything stat related.

Quote
Originally posted by Animal
So this is what it sounds like... when dorks whine.

I normally wouldn't be going this far, except that I havn't been able to play for some 3 days, and won't be able to for another three days.

*twitches*

Offline Dead Man Flying

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That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2002, 04:53:34 PM »
:D

Offline Fatty

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That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2002, 04:56:28 PM »
Cheer up Annie, tomorrow is a brand new day.