Author Topic: And you thought the Valdez oil spill was bad.  (Read 575 times)

Offline funkedup

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And you thought the Valdez oil spill was bad.
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2002, 04:13:23 PM »
Geezus that was quick!  :)

Offline DA98

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« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2002, 04:15:53 PM »
MrLars, you seem to know a lot about oil spills. What should have been done to prevent that accident or, at least, mitigate the effects?

Some people is saying that they should have tried to tug the ship to a port or an estuary, and there, in calm waters, extract the oil from the ship tanks, instead of sailing it to open waters in very rough sea, where a cargo transfer to another ship was a lot more difficult, and, as finally had happened, the damaged hull could break due to the increased stress of rough weather. What was the sensible option?

Offline MrLars

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It's ALL these guys fault...
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2002, 04:18:08 PM »
...with their rock and tree climbing SUV's ;)

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2002, 04:20:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by funkedup
Geezus that was quick!  :)


heheh :D

Offline MrLars

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« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2002, 04:31:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DA98
MrLars, you seem to know a lot about oil spills. What should have been done to prevent that accident or, at least, mitigate the effects?
 


While I do have experience in more than a few spills, each one is unique.

Towing a disabled vessel closer to shore could be a viable option IF:

The area slated for mooring isn't an environmental 'hotbead'.

If the targeted area has easy access for clean-up/salvage ops.

If the sea conditions as well as the vessels permit the safe maneurving of the vessel close to shore.

Without being there I'll let the real experts figure out the what ifs.

Until then, I'm content to sit back and watch Greanpeace and the media make fools of themselves by using alarmist tactics with very little 'true' science to back up their claims.

Y'all figure out that I have 'issues' with Greenpeace? :D

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2002, 04:40:41 PM »
MrLars, I appreciate that the Valdez area has recovered nicely. Exactly how many seabirds, fish and mammals were killed in the spill? A lot I recon.

Saying that all is well because it has recovered is like saying the holocaust was no big deal because the Jews are doing fine today.

Offline john9001

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« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2002, 05:06:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target

Saying that all is well because it has recovered is like saying the holocaust was no big deal because the Jews are doing fine today.



This is one reason i hate analogies and never use them , because analogies are always wrong. The Valdez oil spill has nothing to do with the holocaust.

A) valdaz was a accident , holocaust was done on purpose.

B) valdaz killed some wildlife, holocaust murdered 6 million humans.

44MAG

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2002, 05:25:28 PM »
Analogies are only "always wrong" if you lack the wit to see the connection.

I'm sorry, because you are missing out on a great deal of educational potential by failing to comprehend the "analogy".

BTW, Jesus was very fond of them.

Offline MrLars

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« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2002, 05:33:53 PM »
All animals suffered in the Valdez spill to be sure but the impact on the total ecological picture of PWS is minimal.

I'm reminded of one of the video images that a lot of people have seen. It's of a man standing knee deep in tidal waters dressed in a 'mustang' survival suit < bright orange > holding up a dead otter by the hind feet. That image was splashed all over the news and Greenpeace publications, a very famous < rather infamous IMO > video clip...

As Paul Harvey would say, 'Now for the REST of the story'.

That otter was hauled in to Valdez for a post mortem exam and guess what? The final repot on it's death was from a .38 calibre projectile. Seems that the fishermen in Alaska on average kill about 400 otters a year. They calim that the otters voracious appitite ruins 'their' fishing grounds. :) Seabirds are used for target practice on just about every fishing vessel that isn't under some corporate eye.

The calls of gloom and doom were perpetuated by interest groups that have more to gain with an alarmist attitude than not.

So, yes it was an ecological disaster but in the scheme of the total ecological health of PWS it was nothing more than a bump in the road. Infact, in the 6 years after the spill only one year was the salmon catch less than the average. All the other years were record years.
My take on that is that there wasn't all that much more fish but there were quite a few more boats launched because of the windfall profits that a lot but not all of the fishermen made...more boats = more fish taken yaknow.

I went on many seabird surveys, although there were great numbers lost to the spill, the overall impact was very minimal...there's gazillions of them there and recovery of the varrious species affected wasn't ever an issue scientificaly.

Green Island was impacted heavely in the first weeks of the spill. I stood knee deep in emulsified oil the second week of the spill. GI is a peniped haulout area, it recieved, as well as other designated pupping areas, intensive cleanup attention both mechanical and manual. The first images of workers cleaning up rocks with absorbant pads by hand were from GI.

I went on a shoreline survey of GI in '94, we dug up to 2 1/2 meters deep and found that the combination of mechanical cleanup as well as the biomediation techniques left little visual traces of oil. The resulting bloom in intertidal critters was attributed to the great increase of oleophilic bacteria, that was the goal of the technique.

I could go on for days about oil spills, I spent 15 years chasing them and one thing is constant in all of them...the junk science that results from special interest groups will ALWAYS make headlines while the true science is published in respected and scientificaly credible publications years after the story has lost interest.

Offline BGBMAW

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« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2002, 05:58:27 PM »
yes targte...you are uneducauted sometimes...


What is alot of birds too you??..lololo

Classic...

no need to respond...we already know u are wrong..

Jews being murderd and an accidenlat oil spil??? Oh My God,,,,

AH BB brings all kinds togehtere....Jesus Christ....save them all..well maybe not all

Love BiGB
xoxo

Offline davidpt40

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« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2002, 07:01:13 PM »
Is it possible to burn the oil away?

Offline MrLars

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« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2002, 07:13:26 PM »
Here in the states, no. The various bureaucracys would debate the effectiveness of insitu burning well beyond the window of oportuntiy for it to be effective.

There? They can but as it stands now it wouldn't be effective enough. There's some 12 million barrels that will be seeping up for the next 20-30 years or until the figure out a way to go down 11,000+ feet and suck it out...not likely, IMO.

The best option from what I've seen its the use of chemical dispersants. Since it's fuel oil the slick is going to be much larger than crude would be...thinner but larger. In seas of 2-4 feet dispersants work well. Also, there's a beautiful Connie fitted out with dispersal equipment that some co-ops keep in Arizona, she can do a good job if the conditions are right.

Offline Cobra

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« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2002, 07:18:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
Analogies are only "always wrong" if you lack the wit to see the connection.

 


Geez MT, a little arrogant here aren't we, especially when you were rightfully called on a hyperbolic analogy.

Oh wait... I do get it...Big Oil is Hitler......The Captain is Hess, the Exxon Valdez is Aushwitz, and the birds are humans....ahhh..ok, I guess I still lack the "wit" to see your connection.

How about this.  The area recovered after a horrible, and avoidable, oil spill.  While wildlife suffered a great loss, it did recover in this area, and nature made a comeback, although we shouldn't expect to continue to abuse our planet this way and expect it to keep coming back and recovering.

Cobra

Offline Gryffin

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« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2002, 08:43:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MrLars
Until then, I'm content to sit back and watch Greanpeace and the media make fools of themselves by using alarmist tactics with very little 'true' science to back up their claims.


When the majority of the population have no idea about the science involved, alarmist tactics can be very effective. What greenpeace says may sound stupid from a scientific point of view, but from a political point of view their response is perfect.

Offline Pepe

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« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2002, 04:15:45 AM »
Being natural from La Coruņa, this thing makes me (to say the least) furious, only so-called self-called "ecologists" who knows little about anything but alarmism make me even more furious.

I'm mostly with MrLars point of view.

The worst aspect of the accident is, from my point of view, that we have now roughly 50.000 Tons of oil under 3.500 mts. of water, and nobody knows for sure what is going to happen with this in the coming years.

Nobody can tell for sure if we have a coffin or a time bomb buried.

Another silly face of this is the legal nature of the Tankers business. The whole labirithn is absolute rubbish. I can understand very well the reasons behind, but it holds abosolutely no justification, but the economic one. It's absurd we carry on living with tankers without a clean, precise and enforceable chain of responsibilities about the consequences of accidents.

And it's absurd, too, have them passing closer than 20 miles from the shoreline.

If we want to use oil, we HAVE to stand the risks. That's for sure. But while I will happily take the risks, as I want to buy gasoline for my car, fuel for my home's heating system, electricity form Thermal generators, I am not ready to accept the dilluted responsibility between captain, crew, convenience flag, shipowner, charter, etc., etc., etc. I want all the risk included in the price we pay for oil, and have all the responsibilities claimed on the ones responsible for accidents.

Accidents happen, but it needs to be clear who is responsible for them, and he has to pay in full for it. I want a single responsible to claim on. If there is more than one, all of them are responsible in full and will pay for all the damage.

Just my 2 cts.