How many here believe in evolution?

[midnight Target]

Originally posted by Hortlund
Still waiting for the explanation of the Giraffe and the first protein MT.

Some excellent progress on the protien issue has been made by Dr. Miller in San Diego, CA.
He was involved in the original experiments done by Dr. Urey in 1953 that proved amino acids and simple nucleotides could form froma reducing atmosphere and electricity (lightning).

Here is a link to his work.

http://www.accessexcellence.org/WN/SUA02/primordial_soup.html

[Saurdaukar]

Originally posted by whgates3
no you cant

Yes you can.

[myelo]

Originally posted by Hortlund
Still waiting for the explanation of the Giraffe and the first protein MT.

Happy to help.

In a previous post you said, regarding the cardiovascularr adaptations necessary for extremely long necks:

The question Im aiming at is "how did this system evolve"? Here, natural selection cannot help because the valves are useless until functional. Same goes for that sponge in its head.

You’re assuming the cardiovascular structures in giraffes are unique. They are not. Many animals have a rete (the “sponge in the head”) and every mammal I’m familiar with has valves in the jugular veins. These have just evolved into more robust structures in the giraffe, as would be expected based on natural selection. Similar changes are seen in other long-necked animals, such as camels and ostriches.

Once you understand this, the rest is easy. In Darwin's theory of natural selection, the giraffe populations would have variations in their neck sizes due to genetic differences. The individuals with the longer necks would have more food options than those with the shorter necks; that is, they could continue to eat if the shorter trees were all stripped of leaves. These individuals would live longer on average, and therefore produce more offspring with genes for longer necks, than would the individuals with shorter necks. Over time, the population would have giraffes with longer neck lengths than earlier giraffes.  

Similarly, this same population would have variations their cardiovascular system, such as heart size, blood pressure, and strength of the venous valves. Again – there is nothing inherently unique about these structures in giraffes; it’s only a matter of degree. The individuals with more a more robust cardiovascular system would live longer on average produce more offspring, etc.
 
If you’re really interested, the family history of giraffes is this: They branched off from deer just after Eumeryx. The first giraffids were Climacoceras (very earliest Miocene) and then Canthumeryx (also very early Miocene), then Paleomeryx (early Miocene), then Palaeotragus (early Miocene) a short-necked giraffid complete with short skin-covered horns. From here the giraffe lineage goes through Samotherium (late Miocene), another short-necked giraffe, and then split into Okapia (one species is still alive, the okapi, essentially a living Miocene short-necked giraffe), and Giraffa (Pliocene), the modern long-necked giraffe.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by myelo
 These have just evolved into more robust structures in the giraffe, as would be expected based on natural selection.  

Could you elaborate on this part please. How does natural selection help before the full function is there?

[myelo]

Originally posted by Hortlund
Could you elaborate on this part please. How does natural selection help before the full function is there?

Because you use the term “full function” you seem to imply that this is a matter of all or nothing. In my previous post I tried to explain this is not the case, but should have done a better job with this.

Let’s take the valves in the jugular veins, which drain blood from the head. Many of the larger veins in mammals have one-way valves. For example your jugular veins have valves. More importantly, the large veins in your legs have valves. This helps keep blood moving in the proper direction (toward the heart) and prevents blood pooling in the lower portions of the body, such as your legs.

The valves in the giraffe’s jugular veins have an identical structure. They are just sturdier. In other words, they are not unique structures, just variations in structures that were already there.

Now, because of the ever-present genetic variation within a population, the valves in some individuals are slightly sturdier than others. For example, the valves in your leg veins may be sturdier than in mine. The same in giraffes.

Here’s what might happen; please realize I’m speculating here to make the point.  We have this population of giraffes with slightly differing valves – some are a little stronger, and some are a little weaker. Genetic variation within a population.  Our giraffes are drinking at the watering hole, with their heads down. Along comes Mr. Sabre-tooth tiger. The giraffes with better jugular veins might have been able to raise their head from a lowered position slightly faster without suffering a momentary lack of blood to the brain. Therefore the “sturdy-valve” giraffes might be the first ones away from the watering hole. The “sturdy valve” giraffes live on to mate and make little giraffes, which have inherited their parent’s sturdy valves. Meanwhile, the giraffes with less sturdy valves can’t raise their head quite as fast and end up as tiger lunch -- sorry, no reproduction for you.

You could make the same arguments for a more robust rete, bigger heart, etc. You see, it doesn’t have to be an all or nothing mutation. Just natural selection for certain traits within a population; traits that improve the chance for reproduction.

Could God have just designed giraffes this way from scratch? Sure. You won’t see me dispute your or anyone else’s religious belief. But my point is that there is nothing in the development of giraffe anatomy that is inconsistent with evolution.

[midnight Target]

Geology shows that fossils are of different ages. Paleontology shows a fossil sequence, the list of species represented changes through time. Taxonomy shows biological relationships among species. Evolution is the explanation that threads it all together. Creationism is the practice of squeeezing one's eyes shut and wailing "does not!.

[2stony]

I believe we were put on this planet by aliens. Look at this, Mary was supposedly impregmated by God and from that came Jesus. Well, if you were around in the time of Jesus, would you have called anything extraterestial a flying saucer? No, you would have compared it to the mode of transport of the day, say, a "flaming chariot". Think about it!


Stony

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by midnight Target
Geology shows that fossils are of different ages. Paleontology shows a fossil sequence, the list of species represented changes through time. Taxonomy shows biological relationships among species. Evolution is the explanation that threads it all together. Creationism is the practice of squeeezing one's eyes shut and wailing "does not!.  

Nice and mature MT. I see you must be getting desperate in your attempts to defend the theory of evolution.

Geology show that fossils are of different ages, correct.

Paleontology show that there are different fossils at different times.

Taxonomy shows that certain species are more simliar to eachother than others.

3 different things MT, and "evolution" has yet to thread all this together.You may wish it was different, but the fact still remains, evolution has never been observed, it has never been proven, and it has yet to even theoreticise about a plausible origin of life.

It sound more like evolutionism is the practice of squeezing one's eyes shut while crying "I'm correct, I cant prove toejam, but I know I'm correct because I want to be."

[takeda]

Hortlund, we would like to know what are your facts and your theory.

If you really seek a detailed exposition of the current knowledge about evolution, I'm sorry, cannot type it for you or cut and paste it here, go and read a few books and journals.

All this contempt for the scientific method is getting tiresome, so please leave science alone, it works, and doesn't need your approval.

I could start poking holes and making fun of the Old Testament... after all it the story of an angry middle eastern tyrant who genocides his own people and others (even more than once), holds weapons of mass destruction, tell parents to kill their sons and the in the last minute goes "Man... it was a joke"... Yep.. that's very humorous of him. And the way he is always pissed about people all the time, putting bad ideas in their minds and then kicking them for it...
I don't think he exists, but those who think the OT is true, should get the UN going after him and send a few inspectors up there to get hold of the Holy Flooding Machine, The Sacred Salt Statue Turning Device and those pesky bio-weapons, you know, the plagues and stuff. And if he doesn't comply... blow him out of the sky!

Silly? yes of course... a silly anti-religious rant... just at the same level than the feeble attempts to disprove a very well based scientific theory displayed in this thread.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by takeda
Hortlund, we would like to know what are your facts and your theory.

If you really seek a detailed exposition of the current knowledge about evolution, I'm sorry, cannot type it for you or cut and paste it here, go and read a few books and journals.

All this contempt for the scientific method is getting tiresome, so please leave science alone, it works, and doesn't need your approval.

The sad part about this post of yours is the fact that I'm critizing the theory of evolution on a scientific basis, and you dont even realize that. Apparently, if I'm saying that evolutionists have not been able to give sufficient evidence for their theory, I'm showing contempt for the scientific method. If Im saying that according to the scientific method, it is wrong to ignore observations that disprove the current theory, or to make unsubstantiated conclusions from other observations in order to fit them into the  current theorem I'm the one showing contempt for science?

You really dont have a clue takeda. You simply think you know what is right and what is wrong, and based on that belief, you jump to the defence of your pet theory, without even understanding what I'm critizizing or why.  Frankly, it would appear that you are more religious than me, but your religion is science, and you probably dont even realize it.

[takeda]

Faith means nothing to me

Because evolution is a fact, perfectly stablished. You cannot deny reality. The species evolve, even into other species. No faith involved whatsoever. You can have confidence in the sources telling you, but you can go and check it yourself.

Then we have the theories on how they evolve. In that case you need a mechanism that:
a) Explains known facts
b) Keeps working when new facts come up and even predicts them

Darwin came up with such a mechanism: Mutation and Natural Selection, and it yet has to fail to explain known facts. The day it fails to do so, it will have to be revised. Just as gravitation or atomic theory had to be redone at the beggining of the last century.

Faith still has to appear here, why?. I have not tried to disprove myself evolution, but the process of peer reviewing assures me that every published aspect of the theory has suffered a very thorough scrutiny, making very difficult publish a hoax and get away with it, and impossible to maintain it for more than a century, as you seem to claim.

That's a basic working aspect of science, once something is peer approved, you can trust it, but only as long as it keeps working, when you notice that it breaks, you come up with something new, get it working and peer reviewed and get the Nobel price.

Note that there's a basic rule in all this... no supernatural stuff is allowed, that's cheating, because it cannot be disproven by any observable means:

I can say that Shrdlu created the complete universe five minutes ago... fossils, you, this thread and everything, and then go on about how Shrdlu is omnipotent so everything that happens can be explained as his will. Try to show me evidence against that and don't tell me Shrdlu does not exist, how do you know?

So thats it, I don't have faith in science, I have my own experiences and I trust the results of the scientific process peer reviewed by the community.

You can continue to deny the facts or to think there's an evil atheist conspiration out there. Get yourself a nice tin-foil hat in any case.

[DA98]

DA98 bows to Shrdlu.

(Just in case, you never know...)

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by takeda
Faith means nothing to me

Because evolution is a fact,

[/b]
In these first two short sentences you manage to prove to everyone, that you do not understand what you are talking about.

The amusing part is that you are displaying the faith you claim to lack in the first sentence directly in the following second sentence.

And you dont even understand it.

[takeda]

Mmmm a convert.... we might end up getting something worth $$ from this....


Hey DA, I'm the Voice of Shrdlu, I have the Guardian of the Faith in Shrdlu position available... fancy to get some cult going and build some huge Pyramid... (scheme)?

[DA98]

If I can have some virgins at my sevice, I accept.