Author Topic: Affirmative Action - outdated?  (Read 1095 times)

Offline gofaster

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Affirmative Action - outdated?
« on: December 02, 2002, 10:24:59 AM »
Affirmative Action was a USA program/policy that was started in the liberal period of the '60s and '70s as a way to introduce a more racially diversified mix of students into universities and government institutions.  At some levels, it even applied to major corporations for tax and government contracting purposes.  It was a reaction to the civil rights movement led by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., and to a lesser extent, the Black Panthers and Malcolm X.

While the need for Affirmative Action was certainly present 30 years ago, has that need been answered?  Is Affirmative Action a dinosaur?

In my opinion, the answer is "yes".  Affirmative Action was a form of charity that was intended to address the shortcomings of education wrought by the "separate" and "separate but equal" policies of public education - to correct the wrongs of previous policies.  But now that all children have equal access to public education, AA is now becoming an inhibitor to the development of careers for people with the talent and the desire to improve their lot in life by enrolling in higher educational systems.  AA was intended to raise people up, not keep them down.   For this reason, I believe AA should be abolished.  Let people stand on their own two feet, and give everyone a fair shot at improving themselves.

=========From Yahoo News=========

 High Court Takes Affirmative Action Case
37 minutes ago  

By GINA HOLLAND, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) - The Supreme Court re-entered the debate over affirmative action Monday, agreeing to decide if minorities can be given a boost to get into public universities.

 

The court will decide by next June if race can be used in college admissions, an issue that the justices have dealt with only once before, in a cloudy 1978 ruling that led to more confusion.


The justices will consider whether white applicants to the University of Michigan and its law school were unconstitutionally turned down because of their race.


The cases give the court an opportunity to ban affirmative action in higher education or say how much weight universities may assign to an applicant's race. The stakes are high because many colleges have race-conscious admissions policies.


Affirmative action supporters argue that without policies that encourage diverse student bodies, the top public colleges in the country would not be representative.  Representative of what?  A bogus racial census, or representative of treating all students equally, with acceptance criteria based on academic success rather than DNA?


Opponents contend that those policies discriminate against white students, giving slots to less qualified minorities. Ain't that the truth.


A divided appeals court upheld the law school's practices in May, saying the Constitution allows colleges and graduate schools to seek "a meaningful number" of minority students, so long as the school avoids a fixed quota system.


The 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Cincinnati has not ruled in a companion case addressing the school's undergraduate policy, which was argued on the same day as the law school case.


Justices took the unusual step of taking the case anyway, without awaiting a ruling.


The high court has passed up other well-known cases that presented similar questions about the role of race in higher education.


There was pressure from both sides of the debate for the court to intervene now.

"It is hardly an exaggeration to say that the court's decision in these cases will directly affect the lives not only of this generation of students but of generations of students to follow," Theodore Shaw, counsel for the NAACP Legal Defense Fund, told justices in a filing on behalf of black and Hispanic students.  Well of course, because abolishing AA will finally acknowledge that all men are truly created equal and should have equal access based on academic qualifications rather than the color of their skin.  Isn't that what all future generations should be taught to believe?

The last college higher education case at the high court involved Allan Bakke, a white man rejected for admission to a California medical school while minorities with lower test scores got in through a special program. The court on a 5-4 vote outlawed racial quotas. Justice Lewis F. Powell wrote separately that schools could still consider race, so long as they did not use quotas. Courts around the country have set contradictory rules.

Only two of the justices who considered that 1978 case still sit on the court — Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist and Justice John Paul Stevens.

"Many questions cry out for clarification," lawyers for white law school applicant Barbara Grutter told justices in a filing.

Grutter was a 43-year-old businesswoman and mother when she applied to the law school in 1996 but was not accepted. She said that she suspected reverse discrimination after seeing statistics about the racial makeup and qualifications of recent Michigan law classes.  That's odd.  I would've thought that a school priding itself on racial diversity would want to include sexual diversity as well.

Her appeal, and the other one by two would-be undergraduate students, center on the Constitution's guarantee of equal protection for all under the law.

Maureen E. Mahoney, a lawyer for the university, told the court in a filing that if the 1978 ruling is overturned, it "would produce the immediate resegregation of many — and perhaps most — of this nation's finest and most selective institutions."  How?  How can the removal of race as an acceptance criteria create a racially segregated student population?  Logically, her position makes no sense.  Its like saying "if we remove the policy of including green M&Ms in each bag, then we'll end up with bags containing only yellow and blue M&Ms."  She makes no sense.

She said colleges are trying to improve learning with a diverse environment.

About 15 percent of the first year Michigan law students are minorities. The Supreme Court was told that without diversity considerations, the number of minorities in a freshman class could plunge to less than .04 percent. So, in essence, the school is admitting that 10 percent of the students don't have the academic qualifications to be in the Michigan law school and are keeping students who qualify academically from being accepted?  If so, then maybe the school should have separate acceptance criteria: "If you're white, then you have to have a 3.8 GPA to get in, but if you're black, hispanic, or other minority, then you only need a 3.5 because we understand you need special help to overcome your limitations."

Mark Rahdert, a professor at Temple University, said it's difficult to predict how the conservative Supreme Court will rule, but that justices had little choice but to again take up the divisive subject.

"It could literally change the face of the student body in public colleges and universities around the country," he said. Yes, by allowing only the talented students to get in, rather than the talented white students and some others who didn't make the grades but got in because they came from minority parents.

The cases are Grutter v. Bollinger, 02-241, and Gratz v. Bollinger, 02-516.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2002, 10:31:15 AM by gofaster »

Offline midnight Target

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Affirmative Action - outdated?
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2002, 10:39:39 AM »
I would agree that AA is less necessary than it once was. I take issue with this statement of yours though:

Quote
It was a reaction to the civil rights movement led by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., and to a lesser extent, the Black Panthers and Malcolm X.


The hell it was! It was a reaction to the racial discrimination that pervaded our society at the time. MLK etal were just pointing out the obvious.

Your statement is a shining example of the insidious nature of discrimination and how it can be present on levels that may not even be noticed by its perpetrators.

I know you aren't a racist. But racism still exists.

Offline gofaster

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Affirmative Action - outdated?
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2002, 10:54:46 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
I would agree that AA is less necessary than it once was. I take issue with this statement of yours though:

 

The hell it was! It was a reaction to the racial discrimination that pervaded our society at the time. MLK etal were just pointing out the obvious.

Your statement is a shining example of the insidious nature of discrimination and how it can be present on levels that may not even be noticed by its perpetrators.

I know you aren't a racist. But racism still exists.


Actually, we're both right.  MLK and Malcolm X pointed out the obvious, and it was their efforts that persuaded the appointment of liberal justices to the Supreme Court.  My memory is a bit muddy as to which President appointed which Justice to the Court, but I know that most of the liberal government policies were a reflection of political pressure brought about by the civil rights movements.  Part of that governmental response carried over into the legal interpretations of the US Supreme Court.

What I'm really waiting for is someone to come right out and say what Maureen Mahoney alluded to in her statement about the removal of race as a determinant causing the schools to become segregated.  She's afraid that the advancements of racial groups to date will become trivialized when the Great White Face starts sitting in the court rooms, corporate boardrooms, and political back rooms.  More than one professor has contended that subcultural differences are a great inhibitor to the success of blacks in the US, reflected by things such as the racial proportion of single-parent families, crime statistics, and level of education.

But these are issues that can't be resolved by government hand-outs such as Affirmative Action.

Offline Curval

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Affirmative Action - outdated?
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2002, 10:54:57 AM »
Midnight...here in Bda the government has taken AA to a new level.

Our Minister of Tourism and Telecommunications & E-Commerce has been recently quoted as saying "We give contracts to people who look like me!"..she is black, apparently...but has a white father and in the summer I look quite a bit darker than her.

Basically a labour government was elected here in 1998..essentally the "black" party.  They have a self-appointed mandate to right all the wrongs of the racial past on the island and have TOTALLY turned the tables....in an effort to try and help blacks.  

The first large government contract was awarded to a newly formed company whose principles are black.  They were sucessful in getting a govt. contract to build a huge school here.  They are about a year behind and millions over-budget.  The Premier requested the auditor general to look into the progress..when his report came back he was accused of being a racist by all of the government ministers because it was unfavourable.  Now they want to change the constitution AGAIN so that they can get rid of anyone who gives negative reports on the government's tendering process.

I say AGAIN..because this same government has changed all the electorate voting boundaries...by changing the constitution (and not following the correct due process to do so).  The Minister of education was quoted as saying "We don't care what YOU people think" when asked why a referendum, or constitutional conference be scheduled.

I almost responded to Animal's "Do Black People Love You?"  by saying.."Well, no, actually they hate me"...this government has fostered a level of racial tension that you would not believe here.  

I could go on and on about this, but I'm hungry...going for lunch.
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain

Offline GtoRA2

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I say no on AA....
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2002, 11:05:36 AM »
But we need to change the way the school system works.

As far as I know in California,(k through 12) you get funds based on your area tax base, so go areas have good schools and teachers, (simplified) poor areas get way less money and bad teachers.

I think all the money should go into a big pot, and be divided out based on how many students go to the school. Not the areas tax base.

I think this way everyone truly would get an equal education.

Offline popeye

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Affirmative Action - outdated?
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2002, 11:23:21 AM »
I think the University of Michigan should institute a program to get more short people on their basketball team, to make the team more "representative".
KONG

Where is Major Kong?!?

Offline Hooligan

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Affirmative Action - outdated?
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2002, 11:55:03 AM »
AA was once necessary?  How was ever treating someone differently based soley on race necessary or in fact moral?

Hooligan

Offline Eagler

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Affirmative Action - outdated?
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2002, 11:57:48 AM »
I think AA should be turned down to .5 from the MA standard
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Offline miko2d

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Re: I say no on AA....
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2002, 12:29:28 PM »
GtoRA2: I think all the money should go into a big pot, and be divided out based on how many students go to the school...
I think this way everyone truly would get an equal education.


 You would expect communism to be discredited after a century of failures...

 miko

Offline mietla

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Affirmative Action - outdated?
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2002, 12:30:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
But racism still exists.



Wouldn't it be a good first step if the government abolished all the racist laws and policies?

Something like the CA ballot Proposition 209


"The state shall not discriminate against, or grant preferential
treatment to, any individual or group on the basis of race, sex, color, ethnicity, or national origin in the operation of public employment, public education, or public contracting."
« Last Edit: December 02, 2002, 12:50:03 PM by mietla »

Offline Lance

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Affirmative Action - outdated?
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2002, 12:59:19 PM »
Hooligan,

Affirmative action was a jumpstart for social evolution.  Your question as to how it is right or moral to treat anyone differently according to their race is easy to answer with another question.
Considering that, at the time, our society so severely discriminated against blacks that they had no opportunity to develop qualifications or prove their merit in certain roles, how would it have been morally right to not put into place measures that guaranteed that they would have some of those opportunities that white Americans enjoyed?  You can only make the argument that AA should never have been put in place due to its affording people of a certain race preferential treatment if you can demonstrate that there was a greater equality of opportunity between all Americans before its insitution of if you can present a different, "better" means of attaining such equality.  

All of that said, it has served its purpose and should be done away with in most if not all cases, imo.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2002, 01:01:38 PM by Lance »

Offline GtoRA2

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Miko
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2002, 01:07:50 PM »
So your saying it is fair that the California school system puts more money into rich kids educations then into poor kids?


It not communism!

I think that is racism built into the systems.

We are taxed, all of us, so should it not go out in equal amounts per student?

Or you think kids in a good area deserve better educations??

Offline Ripsnort

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Affirmative Action - outdated?
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2002, 01:10:35 PM »
I only have one thing to add....

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.
Martin Luther King


Translated: AA is a no no.

Offline mietla

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Re: Miko
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2002, 01:41:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GtoRA2
So your saying it is fair that the California school system puts more money into rich kids educations then into poor kids?


It not communism!

I think that is racism built into the systems.

We are taxed, all of us, so should it not go out in equal amounts per student?

Or you think kids in a good area deserve better educations??


quality of education has nothing to do with the amount of money you spend per student.

Offline mietla

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Re: Re: I say no on AA....
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2002, 01:45:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
You would expect communism to be discredited after a century of failures...
 



You would think so, but unfortunately this is not the case. Just read this BB.


"Dumb people learn from their own mistakes, smart ones learn from other people's mistakes"