In Defense of .303s

[MRPLUTO]

Comparing the 8 x .303 machine guns of the Spitfire I to the 20mm cannon(s) of the Bf-109, Adolf Galland said the 109's armament was:

"A good idea for a very good shot, but the average pilot is not so good:  he needs a shotgun.  The Spitfire is a real shotgun, so is better armed than the 109 when shooting while turning."

Think about it:  the 109E-4's two cannons each have 60 rounds.  That's 6 seconds of fire.  After that, all you have are two puny machine guns.  The Spit I has 18 seconds of full firepower.

MRPLUTO  VMF-323  ~Death Rattlers~  MAG-33

[davidpt40]

Solution: Train pilots better, cause theres no way the 109s wings are going to hold 8 machine guns.

[HeLLcAt]

Sure Pluto - the 8 x 303's pack a mean punch when close and the bullets fly straighter than anything in the game. But you only get 18 full seconds of full firepower - now compare that to all of the 50's in all of the American planes, for example the F6F and F4U with about 2400 .50's or the P47 with 8 x 50's can hold up to 3400 .50's there. The point is that the 303's will NEVER have enough punch for anyone - at least I think so. The .50's are the best bullet in the game. It packs a pretty mean punch for only being 12.7mm. I might do some tests tonight on how long each gun goes, but I think the F6F can prolly do about 20 seconds if not more. I will post the times tonight if I get time. S! Pluto - you defended the 8 x 303's very well, but nothing that I can't handle! lol just kidding Pluto. That was a good argument against the 20mm and the 109, but not against American .50's.

[moot]

It's easier to land a burst long one fraction of a second than one of a second.

[Karnak]

HeLLcAt,

His argument is in the context of 1940, and the Bf109E-4 against the Spitfire Mk Ia.

Notice that by the time of the F6F and F4U, no British fighter is armed with only .303s.  All British fighter's have switched to the Hispano 20mm cannon as their primary weapon.

[loser]

i have a book on the battle of Britain that deal with this question.

I dont have an exact quote and im not going to look it up (big book)

A certain manufacturer made incendiary or HE .303 rounds for the spitfires and hurricanes.  

A test was performed where small tanks were shot with the average 303 round, and with the other HE round.  The normal rounds passed clear through the tanks only causing leaks.  The HE rounds burst the tanks into flames with the first hit.

Unfortunately these rounds were scarce.

If anyone really cares i will look up the quote.

[palef]

The Spit1 and Hurri I are the best tools for deflection shooting training that I have found.

It's sure helped with high deflection snapshots when I've flown cannon armed planes.

You can set the convergence to about 350-450 for the .303s and then "hose" in an arc through the area you expect your target to cover, starting from under the target aircraft and up through the target area.

The rate of fire and number of rounds in the air really helps when you do connect because the target lights up like a christmas tree with a faulty inverter

It gives you a starting point to practice with the different trajectories of the different weapons, and translates as a methodology  to the .50s really well.

The best I've done is 3 kills landed in one flight with a Hurri I (no reloads) and with practice I plan to get better. Getting in real close is the key.

Word to the Wise: Don't HO with .303s

palef

[thrila]

Are you talking about HEI ammo for the .303?  It's like "De Wilde" ammo but mass produced instead of hand made like "De Wilde" ammo.

Malan (RAF ace) loved the stuff, he believed it made all the difference between damaging a plane and destroying it.  Although i'm not sure if this is the round you mean because it was quite common during the Battle of Britain.  A common loadout on spits/hurri's was 2 guns AP, 2 guns HEI and 4 guns standard ammo.


This help at all loser?

[Wotan]

Read this Thread At AGW

[loser]

Originally posted by thrila
Are you talking about HEI ammo for the .303?  It's like "De Wilde" ammo but mass produced instead of hand made like "De Wilde" ammo.

Malan (RAF ace) loved the stuff, he believed it made all the difference between damaging a plane and destroying it.  Although i'm not sure if this is the round you mean because it was quite common during the Battle of Britain.  A common loadout on spits/hurri's was 2 guns AP, 2 guns HEI and 4 guns standard ammo.


This help at all loser?

yes that was it!

[AtmkRstr]

The 109E's guns would be better than the spit's against bombers I believe.  The spit's is better against fighters due to the shotgun spread.  Ironically, the 109's didn't engage bombers in the BoB and the spits had to deal with bombers aswell as fighters.

[MRPLUTO]

Interesting point, AtmkRstr.

MRPLUTO

[HFMudd]

Actualy, Galland was refering to the 109F and beyond with the single 20mm firing through the hub.  The "shotgun" he wanted was multiple 20mm.

[MRPLUTO]

Yes, Galland was refering to the 109F.  The problem with even the twin 20mms on the 109E was low ammo load.  The 109F's cannon lasts 13 seconds by my calculation.  Not much with which to "spray and pray".  And not the best gun configuration with which to "spray and pray", either.



MRPLUTO