how to resolve C-hog problem ?

[Zigrat]

it doesnt work like that, it doesnt "remove" 19mm so only 1 mm is left.

plus with dispersion and turbulence 1 bullet isnt going in thesame hoel as another.


plus the armor was probably face hardened which would help a bit.

ANYWAYS the armor model is porked, not the f4u-1c.

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by discod:
True jigster...at "500 yds" a single 20MM AP round can penetrate only 19mm...but what a bout at 300yds or 200 yds or 100yds?

And what if two bullets hit the same spot on thre rear armor of a tank (20MM)....1st bullet penetrates 19mm leaving only 1MM.  Then the next bullet to hit that 1MM weak spot will not only penetrate the armour but pulverize the inside of the tank.    

Just some food for thought  

That would mean MG151/20 being capable of blowing up tanks with 1000 rounds, instead of current 10000 rounds  

Though, AH doesn't model invidual hit spots..

[popeye]

The point is not about the effectiveness of the Chog in a 1v1 with (name your plane).  It's about the effect of the Chog on the game.  The numbers are clear.  There is no question that the Chog gets used a lot.  It is very effective in the MA environment.  Would another plane replace it?  I can't think of one that would.  (Nik doesn't do ATG like the Chog).

Would the game benefit from more variety of planes in the air?

[AKDejaVu]

 

Would the game benefit from more variety of planes in the air?

Since when does increasing the variety of planes in the air involve removing one or more of them?

AKDejaVu

[popeye]

When one plane accounts for a large share of those in the air, and a variety of planes would be required to replace it.


[This message has been edited by popeye (edited 02-20-2001).]

[AKDejaVu]

Ah.. so there is an assumption that with less planes available, pilots would evenly distrubute amongst the remaining aircraft.

What happens if they don't?  You now have fewer planes and the likelyhood for one of them being used even more is now increased.

I couldn't help but note one ironic thing... the only time in the last week that I have seen a sky full of any one plane.. it was enemy G10's.  

Maybe I just don't fly into carrier groups and scream bloody murder about all the F4u-1Cs flying from them.

Removing is not the answer.  It just paints a bullseye on the next most popular plane.

AKDejaVu

[AKSeaWulfe]

You missed the point Popeye, read my 2nd post. The F4U-1C is popular, you remove it and the guys flying the F4U-1C just jump to the next plane with percieved advantages. Maybe the N1K, maybe the P51 or even the SpitIX. In the end, it makes no difference.

Until you have a game that has a single plane you are always going to have a plane inside the game that always recieves more attention through either true or percieved advantages.

The F4U-1C has percieved advantages in the 4 cannons and the incessant squeaking regarding them. You remove all of the squeaking around the F4U-1C about 6 months ago and I'll bet dollars to donuts you wouldn't see so many.

IMO the F4U-1C sucks(as does F4U-1D) in the air superiority department unless there's swarms of them.

True air superiority weapons are the 109G2(if you get caught in a bad situation chances are you can either run, turn or climb away from whatever is pursuing you.. in my experience), La5FN(two cannons, 400 rnds, fast, turns very well and climbs well below 8K. I can get 8kill sorties in that plane), Yak9(fast, turns well, good accell, nimble. Got a 6kill sortie in that plane one time, 3 of which were 2 B17s and a Lanc) and the N1K2(no experience there.. just against it and it's really good).

You remove the F4U-1C and the only thing that will change is what plane you see in the air in masses. Nothing else.
-SW

[paintmaw]

avoid the HO ,, kill the hog

[Kieren]

I see it the way you do, AK's. No way an MA crowd is going to politely distribute themselves evenly about the plane set. Bet your bottom dollar that if/when the 1C is perked some other plane will account for 20% of the arena kills.

[Jigster]

 

Originally posted by discod:
True jigster...at "500 yds" a single 20MM AP round can penetrate only 19mm...but what a bout at 300yds or 200 yds or 100yds?

And what if two bullets hit the same spot on thre rear armor of a tank (20MM)....1st bullet penetrates 19mm leaving only 1MM.  Then the next bullet to hit that 1MM weak spot will not only penetrate the armour but pulverize the inside of the tank.    

Just some food for thought  

Remember that this was a firing range type situtation...in other words, a perpendicular shot. Adding the angles at which airplanes and your looking at a relative hardness equal to about 30-40mm and upwards of unpenetratable due to angle. Because the armor is not sloped on the PzIVH a perpendicular hit is near impossible from the air at ranges closer then 1000 yards and the shooter still being able to survive.

Hitting the same 20-30mm hole twice would be pretty difficult in one ammo load, let alone one pass.

Oh yeah, and because the Hispano AP round is non-explosive, it isn't going to do a whole lot after decelerating through a few quarters of an inch of face hardened armor.

The engine is still vulnerable to some well placed rounds but the crew is realtively safe from this because of the armored firewall.

The sides and turrent are particularly well off because after the 20mm decelerates through the 5mm skirts, it enters open space and then has to penetrate another face hardened piece of armor.

bah

- Bessy

[Jigster]

And on the range -- Under 500 yards the Hispano doesn't slow down much, your looking at about the same energy and velocity through to @ 700 to 800 yards where major drag starts to slow the round down. Other cannons, like the Mausers and ShVaks start dropping at 300 yards and less.

The main reason for the 500 yard quote was because that source, the Joint Fighter Conference thingy has been used many times to prove why the Hispano was such an "effective air to air weapon" including Pyro. Proof's been there, but nobody's bothered with it.

I still believe that as it's modeled now, weight of fire (or total energy at one instant) is what determines whether the tank pops or not.

- Bessy

(and yes I am being t & c about it)

[Spatula]

I dont like CHogs but i see no reason for them to go. They aren't *that* uber. Its the hispanos which makes them so effective. Look at the difference between C and D hogs.

HO's are incredibly easy to avoid, so that aint a problem.

The D900 1 ping kills get me tho. I suspect its got alot to do with lag, it looks 900 on mine, but prolly 500-600 on his.

I think with the new dispersion model, spray-n-prey is less of a problem now, and with HTC adding the extra weight the chog had in RL, i cant see of any reason to get rid of it or perk it. Has anyone heard anything more of this?

The niki does have some amazing E retention abilities. All too often i've seen a 180 6-7 G turn followed by a 4,000 foot zoom climb tagging me when i never turned an inch and pulled a 2-3 G pull up into the vert @ 450 MPH. But having said that i just treat em with greater care.

[popeye]

Yeah, I understand the "next most popular plane syndrome".  I just wonder if there is another plane that could fill the role of the Chog in the MA, and become that "NMPP".  The Tiffie has the guns, but not the ammo load.  The Nik and Spit can't do ATG like the Chog.

I really don't think the Chog is a super plane that we need to be protected from.  I do think that it is very effective in the MA environment, and that is the reason for its popularity.  (Check the stats.)  My only interest is in the possibility of creating more variety in the game.

[senna]

I used to hate chogs just like anyone else but now I actually dont even notice them unless they two ping kill me. Actually I havent played in a while but thats not the point I'm trying to address. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I've grown used to them and enjoy killing these sloppy flying chog HOing dweebs whenever I get the chance (except a few like kbman, fscott, torque, nash, etc...). I have fought chogs whos tactics are to get in front of me for a kill, pass after pass! This is just what I have encountered in the MA.

-- senna

[Jekyll]

 

Originally posted by Jigster:
 

Oh yeah, and because the Hispano AP round is non-explosive, it isn't going to do a whole lot after decelerating through a few quarters of an inch of face hardened armor.

Remember that OUR Hispanos are both AP and HE in the one shell.  You don't have separate AP and HE belting in Aces High.  Each shell is a mix of the common belting components.

So, for example, if a standard belting for the 20mm Hispano is 3 HE to 1 AP, each Aces High Hispano shell is 25% AP, 75% HE.

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When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Chapter 13, verse 11