Cut Price Airlines: How DO they do it?

[Creamo]

I'm management Cremo..it is my duty to go to battle against you blue-shirted types.  

Oh for gods sake. You actually see your home Sears machine washed white shirt and JC Penney tie, ironed before work, as if it’s a status symbol of actual production and intellectual business savy worth? Your  bravely saving the stockholders from the Blue Horde??

I’m still confident your not a Wall Street management type that keeps fortune 500 companies running, and clients on hold in busy conference calls, to work in 20 posts a day on a flightsim BBS before your secretary delivers your dry cleaned work attire.



 Just a guess funked..but probably because they give them what they want and cut costs in every other department.

Mindless. I can't even make you seem anymore foolish. I'll just paste it again.

 Just a guess funked..but probably because they give them what they want and cut costs in every other department.

lol


Bashing you on every point you miss in the rest of your posts will serve no purpose. It’s bedtime.

[Sparks]

Curval - I have no problem with asking questions on union balance sheets and with you maikng your claims I may well do so.

However you seem to be associating rising wage costs with the need to fund the union structure - that simply doesn't follow.

Now to this.....

But, I ask you this...how can management control wage and benefit expense, one of the largest line items on the P&L statements, with unions constantly stepping in the way?

This is a PERFECT example of blinkered accountants looking at a business. You are missing one key factor - the relationship between what you pay a worker an hour and what that hour of work brings in for the business.[i/]  THAT relationship is what is controlled by the management and managemnet alone.  

The cost of an employees hour of work is irrelevant if he earns more in the hour than he costs.  If I come to work and there is nothing for me to do then I am COSTING money - THAT IS NOT MY PROBLEM - IT IS A SALES / MANAGEMENT PROBLEM.

Taking Beetles point on airlines - look at the ratio of management to shopfloor workers in each British Airways and Ryanair - I know people in both and BA has approx 4 times the managers per X manual employees than Ryanair.   The manual people EARN the money - the managers SPEND the money.

Now going back to my initial relationship and my intial reply post - the Idiots managing the project were not only NOT supporting the workers under them (i.e. providing tools, planning support, information, skills, training) they were actually hindering them. HOWEVER when it comes down to the bean-counters analysis where is the problem - the labour costs due to overtime. The overhead of incompetent management is never seen - never seen because the accountants aren't going to finger the person who pays them and managers are not going to finger themselves.

I have been self employed and understand costings.  The union may be imperfect but it's the only protection I have against the incompetance and power games I see every day in middle management upwards.

Sparks

[Creamo]

Creamo, in the thread to which he refers, was bragging that one paycheck paid for his union dues and that the union was responsible for getting him the increase that facilitated this....within a matter of weeks that airline filed for bankruptcy.

A nightcap.

No wonder you and DRippy crapped yourselves all over the place, him punting threads about United stock, emailing me again about my wife, changing his sig to include a ref. to it, and you making all these posts and the spiteful dig about "Las Vegas dealers job opening".

You think I work for United?

Tards.

[Sparks]

originally posted by Curval

"EXCESSIVE COSTS ARE CREATED BY BAD MANAGEMENT - FULL STOP"

LOL....omg. What planet are you from?

Not the one where accountants come from obviously......

OK - I'll tell you my "greasy workers" blue collar view.  I go to work for a company for X number of hours and company agrees to pay me Y pounds/dollars per hour for that work - REAL simple arrangement.  

Now what company decides to do with me for that X hours is its choice - i.e. the choice of the management.

Now it can have me loafing about because it hasn't got it's sales force off it's bellybutton to bring any work in or it may have me doing work twice over because it won't listen to me when I give suggestions as to how we SHOULD do it.  In which case company will lose money.  Bean-counters will see this as "excessive labour costs - UAL perhaps - Xerox certainly (worked for them too so I know from first hand)

Alternatively it can have me cracking out a full days work, effeciently planned and properly costed.  Ryanair and others.

At the simplest level I want the going rate for the job and to maintain my position in relation to others skills - why should I lose my income due to piss poor management.

I can't earn more than the management let me so yes excessive costs ARE down to management.

Also I can't affect the price the job was estimated at or how the resource assigned to do the job is used - thats down to the management and that determines the profits......

You want to find where to cut costs - look in the glass fronted offices and behind the walnut desks - but ah yes thats where you sit , or at least those who pay you

[Curval]

Sparks..I am not associating union costs with anything but internal corruption within the unions.  Those comments, which Bro Creamo still hasn't addressed, were to answer his question on what I have against unions.

Nothing you can say or do will change my mind on that score..I've seen it firsthand.

Creamo, no I'm not wall street, but 20 posts a day is a slight exagerration,  especially since you have a hell of alot more posts than I do..bit of a pot calling the kettle black I'd say old chap.  I have double the number of posts per day as you but not all have been during working hours.  Just curious though,why do you always resort to accusations about people posting at work as a form of defense..it is just a weak and lame jibe.  I work more hours than you do "ganar-freakin teed" and I fill in time sheets to account for it all.

Your rants about my white vs. blue shirts comment is just silly.  I put a wink after it to signify I was not being serious.

[lord dolf vader]

my wife works between 5 and 12 hours a night keying mail for the post office. befor the union lawsuit they made minimum wage. now they make $12.95 as second class union type. I was also raised in the unions are bad ( republican  government union members ) its crap.  give people the option  to enter a union on any job is the only acceptable option otherwise businesses will abuse them if at all possible.

p.s. my wife says the fact that managment idiots ( like several of the above )can no longer spew their threats and other crap ( just befor the union they promised all jobs would go if pay raise happend ) they have since added 900 people.


For the working man unions are good, for management they are bad, cause american managment is rife with stupid spitefull lackys spouting football analagys who cant see 5 minutes beyond their own bonus.
In the long run decently paid workers with benifits help a company alot more than a never ending succesion of temporary wage slaves. I cant see how you can even argue aginst it. but this is a country ( the only industrialized one on earth ) where national medicin is a bad thing.   sigh

[beet1e]

ccvi -yes, the cut price airlines use low cost airports. easyJet operates out of Luton & Liverpool, and flies mainly to holiday destainations whose airports have no large overheads. Ryan Air operates all flights out of London Stansted (except their flight to Dublin - operated from Luton). This has a major impact on cost cutting. They don't have ticketing - they manage their own passenger lists, and do not use ticketing companies like Amadeus or Gallileo. Down side to that is the scrum when you're trying to board. Solution: get on via the back door if you can.

[Curval]

Originally posted by Creamo
Creamo, in the thread to which he refers, was bragging that one paycheck paid for his union dues and that the union was responsible for getting him the increase that facilitated this....within a matter of weeks that airline filed for bankruptcy.

A nightcap.

No wonder you and DRippy crapped yourselves all over the place, him punting threads about United stock, emailing me again about my wife, changing his sig to include a ref. to it, and you making all these posts and the spiteful dig about "Las Vegas dealers job opening".

You think I work for United?

Tards.

I have no knowledge about anyone e-mailing anyone about one's wife...keep me outta that.  Rip has his opinions, I have mine, there is no colusion going on...stop being paranoid.

Yea, I did think you worked for United...if I'm wrong then so be it, I'm a tard in that regard.

Did my spiteful dig hurt...really?  I think you are a big boy, you throw enough of your own spite around here, and can take it.

Doesn't change my opinion about unions in any way.

[SOB]

Originally posted by Curval
Sparks..I am not associating union costs with anything but internal corruption within the unions.  Those comments, which Bro Creamo still hasn't addressed, were to answer his question on what I have against unions.

Nothing you can say or do will change my mind on that score..I've seen it firsthand.

Creamo, no I'm not wall street, but 20 posts a day is a slight exagerration,  especially since you have a hell of alot more posts than I do..bit of a pot calling the kettle black I'd say old chap.  I have double the number of posts per day as you but not all have been during working hours.  Just curious though,why do you always resort to accusations about people posting at work as a form of defense..it is just a weak and lame jibe.  I work more hours than you do "ganar-freakin teed" and I fill in time sheets to account for it all.

Your rants about my white vs. blue shirts comment is just silly.  I put a wink after it to signify I was not being serious.

I think you should re-read his post.  He wasn't comparing his job to yours or the amount of hours he works to the amount of hours you work or even that it wasn't OK for you to peruse and post to this BB from work.  He was deducting that you couldn't be a super high-falutin' upper management-type if you have time to post on this BB.  At least, that's how I read it.


SOB

[Cobra]

Curval,
I'm in management as well, but you, sir, are an idiot.

And the onus is on you to proove otherwise, but by watching your posts, you've dug a pretty deep hole.

Here's hoping you don't risk of pissing off anymore clients.......

It's NOT Unions that run a company into the ground.....It's the hacks in Management that do 100% of the time.

Who the hell do you think makes strategic and tactical decisions?

Who the hell do you think negotiates with the Unions....it's Management's baby to win or loose.....man, if you are/were an auditor, then I already know what kind of Hack you are.  

If you don't take care of the DIRECT Labor...not INDIRECT Labor like you and me, but DIRECT labor, where rubber meets the road, then you've lost.  It's that simple!  Manage them, don't despise them.

I'm no Union lover, believe me, but I also know it's not the Union who busts a company.....again, it's the Management Hacks every damn time.

And what SOB said.

Cobra

[fd ski]

27 year old here, no experiance in either, management or unions.
But as for management, 90% of management i've experanced in my personal carrier has composed of idiots, imposters and wanna be's. Now that I've atteneded management classes in my college, i know why.

The following are the quotes from the profesor at UConn in Management 201 class. Professor is a PhD actually, in something HR related. 30 years in large corporation so on..

"good manager doesn't have to know anything about what his people are doing"

"good manager doesn't make decisions, he facilitates communicatons"

"stereotypes are good cause they allow us to categorize things easily"

I'll see if i can dig up some more later..
You get the point however.
My manager is reading the book called "Leadership secrets of Attila the Hun". Here is an expert from "The Economist" review about this book:

If you are a person who sees the world in a Manichean world view of "good and evil"/ "us and them" then you may ultimately see some kind of value in this book. All research however indicates that a successful business relationship is formed on the basis of honesty, trust and committment to a win-win relationship with the client. Without that fundamental understanding business and corporations do not advance. Those companies that practise the Attila mindset will ultimately remain Neanderthals and will condemn themselves to always being small-time, cheesy presenters with a life time of believing in the simplistic explanations for complex behaviour.

My manager however swears by it. He also doesn't know anything about what I do, which in some cases is quite nice. I can get away wiht just about anything

Idea of proper management has been lost long time ago.
The moment we started teaching facilitators instead of molding leaders.

[Curval]

Hey Cobra..if you want to cuddle up to Creamo that is fine..but don't insult me in your efforts to do so.  I know you "like him" but insulting yourself in your tirade against management is going a bit far.

I am direct labour in my company.  I docket my time and it is charged directly to clients.  I am not "overhead" like yourself.

I WAS an auditor.  I am no longer one.  Any CPA you know was once an auditor..I guess they are all hacks, just like management, in your opinion.  

As far as your comment about pissing off clients..you should read that thread again.  The guy who I "could" have upset didn't hear what I said (even though I didn't say anything wrong) and the founder of that company who pointed out my potential faux-pas agreed with me.  It wasn't a wise thing to say politically, but no-one is or was upset.  Please get your facts right.

[SirLoin]

I'll bet it wasn't the CAW(Canadian Auto Workers) that you audited Curval...Some unions are better than others..Some aren't really unions at all,like Old Blue of the Ontario Liquor Board.

[Cobra]

Curval,
I'm not cuddling up to anybody....so slow down there Ace.  Like your comment about Rip...my opinion of you is my own.  

Not sure how I insulted myself, but hey, whatever makes you love yourself more.....

Heh...CPA...explains more than you know

I'm in management, like I said.  I do it on a Global level.  I do it in Supply Chain and logistics at that level.  I don't just audit someone doing it....I make it happen, bean-counter .  But I'll bow to your vast experience

I got my facts right, hissy-lad.  What you did was a very stupid, stupid thing.  You got lucky that time, but it doesn't change the stupidity of your act.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go vomit after reading the wisdom in your posts.

Cobra

[Toad]

I blame exploding costs and the inability of management to control them

[/b]

When Ron Allen almost destroyed Delta it was a direct result of going on a grandiose terminal building spree. Prior to this idiotic maneuver, Delta operated out of whatever was available at the airport, made minimal upgrades and just "got the job done".

We could do this because we had personnel with long-time experience in the industry at the particular terminal. It simply worked. It wasn't fancy, it wasn't glamourous but the flights got out on time.

Brother Allen decided this wasn't befitting of a "world class air line" and embarked on a spending spree that was unprecedented in the industry. He built monuments to his stupidity all over the place. Two of the most egregious were Los Angeles and Orlando. They were huge, they were marble and glass and they were incredibly expensive. We almost went bankrupt.

Now, 10 or so years later we don't even use half the gates we built. We lease them out at fire sale prices to other carriers that have to be laughing their hind ends off.

Tell me how this was labor's fault?

Management's number one problem in controlling costs are the morons that they choose to sit behind the overabundant big mahogany desks.

Back when Dave Garrett ran Delta, DAL had the fewest Vice Presidents of any major airline. Under Ron Allen, we had the most or were at least in the top 2-3 for superfluous, expensive managers.

Why is SW successful? Check and see how many managers they have compared to folks that actually "do the job" and earn the company money.

Which came first: Piss-poor managers or union organizers?

Before I go, one of Leo Mullin's (the "new" guy) BIG MISTAKES:

The DAL pilots took the worst contract in the majors in '96. Major pay and benefit cuts. Put them @ #8 in pay/benefits in the industry. The rest of the employees took major cuts as well.

Mullin takes over and the industry turns around. All the airlines are making money hand over fist, can't find places to hide it all.

Mullin gives all non-contract employees huge raises, from 8-14%. Tells the pilots that they have a contract and "a contract is a contract, see you in two years".

The pilots get MAJOR gains in the next contract, puts them essentially at #1 or #2 in the industry. They enjoy this for almost 8 months.

Then 9/11.  Mullin talks of everyone having to make "sacrifices". Instantly, copies of Mullin's old "contract is a contract" letter appear all over the system, posted on the public cork-type bulletin boards. So far, no changes to the pilot's contract. (But it's coming; everyone knows that.)

Wouldn't an intelligent manager have shared a bit of the largesse with the pilots when he gave raises to all others? The amount of good will to be had woud have been purchased at bargain basement prices and would ALREADY have been returned to him  thrice-fold since 9/11.

But no.. he had to treat someone else in a way that he would have personally considered cheap and unfair.

....... and it came back to bite him.

Go figure.

You don't have to be real smart to be a manager; you just have to be fair and follow the golden rule.

Problem is they can't control their own GREED and thus they can't control corporate costs.