G Tolerance

[AKS\/\/ulfe]

Originally posted by Casper
If you believe that guy really flew an F15, I've got a bridge to sell you in New York.
Casper

And if you believe blacking out results in loss of consciousness, I'll sell you back that bridge.
-SW

[AKS\/\/ulfe]

Originally posted by Oedipus
"....blackout, and then unconsciousness.

Blackout preceeds unconsciousness, but when you are blacked out, you are not necessarily unconscious.
-SW

[Puke]

IMO, some of you are getting off track here.  Sustained and instantaneous Gs are different animals.  Blackouts, pulling rivets and cracking spars and insta-death are all different too.  I have pulled the wings off my Mustang in Aces High and I will tumble to the earth.  However, Aces High also includes some instant death feature invoked the instant you reach 12Gs.  

In my initial post I copied something about a gentleman by the name of John Stapp.  Here is a quote and the link to an article about the man...

"The sled reached 632 miles per hour, decelerating to zero in a second and a quarter (1¼ sec) with a force of more than forty Gs. His momentary body weight became 6,800 pounds."

The guy lived.

Here's the link.  
http://www.spacefame.org/stapp.html

Don't post what you *think*, but what is true.

[Blue Mako]

Originally posted by funkedup
Limit Load = The load factor limit ("G limit") that the pilot is supposed to obey.  This is what you will find in operating manuals.  The plane will not fall apart at this load, nor will any damage occur if the plane is in pristine condition.

Ultimate Load = Load where plastic deformation occurs.  Airframe is permanently damaged.  Generally 1.5 times Limit Load.  This is not neccesarily a fracture load.  Airframe will be bent but not broken.

Limit Load is less than Ultimate Load because of fatigue considerations and uncertainty in stress calculations.

The 1.5 factor is a US convention.  I'm pretty sure some WW2 fighters had smaller factors.

Sorry funked, didn't read down far enough before I replied, see my post above.

Limit load is pretty much as you described.  Once you exceed the limit load, damage may occur (which is why checks are carried out if it is ever exceeded).

If the ultimate load is exceeded, however, the aircraft can be expected to fail, not just bend.  The materials used in aircraft usually fail soon after starting to deform, that is why you hardly ever see aircraft landing with bent airframes after exceeding the structural limits, they are usually smoking holes soon after reaching ultimate load.

[Blue Mako]

I think the point is that the majority of aircraft in Aces High shouldn't be able to safely pull 12g.  Aluminium and steel aren't as resilient as the human body.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Blue Mako
Yup, and that time is measured in milliseconds.  Current aircraft design practice is that the limits are set at 1/1.5 ultimate load (don't know what they were in WW2).  Ultimate load means just that, ultimate , exceed it and something breaks.  Usually that something is a wing spar.  Aircraft have to be designed lightweight or they will not fly.  It is unrealistic to think that you can hold your aircraft at or above the ultimate load for even a few seconds.

 An isolated case that is probably true.  However, how heavily loaded was the aircraft at the time?  How heavy the aircraft is loaded determines the max G limit.  12g might have been still below the ultimate load of the airframe while lightly loaded.

This example adds no support to the argument that all WW2 aircraft should be able to handle G above the pilot limits.  This is an isolated anecdotal example.  (hehe big words)

I believe that you have missed the context of my comments. I have insisted since this “bug” appeared that the pilot can withstand considerably higher momentary G loads than his aircraft. That is precisely why I am somewhat miffed with this instant death syndrome. Some have stated that it may be the airframe failing under load. However, in the case of the Wildcat, there is data aplenty that illustrates than a 12 G momentary loading (we’re probably looking at milliseconds duration to induce instant death in the game) will not damage the Grumman’s airframe. Sustained loads of that order have resulted in bending of the engine A-frames, but no known structural failures. So, not only should the pilot not die (or likely experience any perceived discomfort for a 10-50 millisecond load duration), but the aircraft will not suffer catastrophic failure either. Grumman was always extremely conservative when calculating failure loading, typically designing in a 10% reserve above and beyond the basic design criteria.

Think about this for a second. Back in the 1940s, the types of analog stripchart recorders used for flight testing did not have the response time to record inputs where the duration was less than 10 milliseconds. It’s like using an analog multimeter to monitor a power frequency of 100 Hz. It is entirely likely that short duration inputs well in excess of 20 g (for say 10 msec) would never be recorded. We had a few of these antiques and found them useless in recording, much less isolating G input where the input duration was less than 0.025 seconds. Faster systems came along eventually, but those old recorders where of limited value.

My regards,

Widewing

[Blue Mako]

Widewing, I see where you are coming from and I don't doubt the accuracy of anything you have said.  However, I think the people posting saying "a pilot can handle as many G's as you can put on him" are missing the fundamental point that for the majority of aircraft that are modelled in AH, the airframe will break up with loads (even if instantaneous) that are well above the normal design loads.  That means that whether or not the organic flight control unit can handle it, the plane is going to be going down in small pieces.  It seems that HTC have modelled the instant death G limit to put a ceiling on allowable G.  I don't have a problem with that (if that is what they have done).  Yes it could be done better but there must be some limit to what you will code as allowable otherwise where do you stop?  Researching all of the anecdotal evidence for structural limits as opposed to using the published limits for each aircraft would be just too much effort.

Anyway, this is just my opinion.  HTC have their reasons if it is a feature, they will likely fix it if it is a bug.  

[eagl]

Casper - Seeing is believing.  I'm the one on the left, and that's my name painted under the canopy rail.  Funny, you're only the third person in 6 years flying online games to question whether or not I'm a real pilot, and one of those three used his question to get me into the Janes F-15 project as an unpaid consultant.

The photo has been edited because I did not ask the WSO's permission to post his name and photo on the internet, so to be on the safe side I spraypainted over the name and face.  Sorry about the retouch quality, I'm not an artist

[WldThing]

Very Cool pic eagl

[Casper]

Originally posted by eagl
Casper - Seeing is believing.  I'm the one on the left, and that's my name painted under the canopy rail.  Funny, you're only the third person in 6 years flying online games to question whether or not I'm a real pilot, and one of those three used his question to get me into the Janes F-15 project as an unpaid consultant.

Salute, eagl!

If you are a real one, hat's off to you.  The only reason I have to believe you're lieing is because the Internet makes it very easy to do that.  There's an added dimension of artificiality online, I think you know what I mean.

Either way, I hope you DO realize that there's as many physiological effects on the body for G's as there are people.  That is, it affects each person differently.  Speaking for myself, I can pull an estimated 2.5-3G (about a 65-70 degree bank, holding altitude) for like 2 seconds and I start to see the sparklers (normal category aircraft).  It's a very, very strange feeling and I can say that for most people, it would take some getting used to.  Even sustained 2G turning in a Cherokee, while it doesn't gray me out or anything like that, is a little tiresome after awhile, just because your arms gain weight out there in front of you on the yolk, and holding your head up takes a little extra effort.  I also noticed that the more you do it, the less you notice.  I can picture myself blacking out about 4-5G, real easy.  Having flown in the neighborhood of 2.5-3G, I personally have a lot of respect for what pilots went through in actual combat, where 3-6G loads (or possibly more) are commonplace.  

It's understood that modern fighter aircraft routinely pull sustained 7-9G loads, but in order for pilots to sustain that load, they need to be suited up for the job.  Without it, loss of vision followed by loss of conciousness are known effects.

My argument is that the game should black people out AND disable the aircraft's control surfaces until they come to under blackout gravity.  And the duration of blackout should increase each time the player blacks himself out on a given mission.  This will kill the "miracle turns" you see in the TnB game, and restore TnB to a "thinker's game" once again.

Casper

[fullback]

Eagl has been around a long time and if you'd looked at his posts, you would have known his reputation and not challenged his veracity. You can drop the qualifiers "If you are a real one..."

And many people here are neither morons, nor lying scumbags. Many of us have never held elected office.

[Vermillion]

Casper, nothing personal, but its considered real bad form to step into a new community (20 whole posts on the forum?) and start to tell everyone "how it is".

Eagl, is the real deal.  I've met him in person, drank a beer with him, and listened to his stories at the past two Con's.  He doesn't roadkill.... much

Non-pilots will black out at about 5-6 G's in a matter of seconds. When they come to, they feel woozy for up to an hour.

Wrong.  G-tolerance varies from person to person, according to your physical fitness, age, and other factors.  Also learning how to do the "grunt" manuever, and keep your abdomen tensed as you fly thru the manuever its important as well.

I'm not a "real" pilot, but a couple of years ago, I got to fly a AT-6 Texan doing aerobatics.  And we performed several manuevers up 5 G's for several seconds.  I didn't even tunnel vision except for one time I wasn't paying attention, banged my head on the canopy, and was not ready for the manuever (think it was a split S) and I had a slight tunneling of my vision.  And yes I have proof if you really want to see it.

Admittedly, the instructor said that I had really good G tolerance for someone who doesn't fly regularly, and that most people would not have handled our flight so well ( I had bet him that he could not make me puke when I got off the airplane, he tried his damndest.... heheheheheheheh).

But don't make assumptions that most people will instantly pass out at 2-3 G's.  Hell, even rollercoasters pull sustained 2-3 G's.

[Casper]

Originally posted by Vermillion
Casper, nothing personal, but its considered real bad form to step into a new community (20 whole posts on the forum?) and start to tell everyone "how it is".

I can pretty much do whatever I want, 20 posts or 20,000 posts.

Originally posted by Vermillion
Eagl, is the real deal.  I've met him in person, drank a beer with him, and listened to his stories at the past two Con's.  He doesn't roadkill.... much

Give me your address, I'll send you a cookie.

Originally posted by Vermillion
Wrong.  G-tolerance varies from person to person, according to your physical fitness, age, and other factors.  Also learning how to do the "grunt" manuever, and keep your abdomen tensed as you fly thru the manuever its important as well.

Isn't that what I just said?  Here, I'll remind you.

Originally posted by Casper
Either way, I hope you DO realize that there's as many physiological effects on the body for G's as there are people. That is, it affects each person differently.

You can stop putting words into my mouth now.

Originally posted by Vermillion
I'm not a "real" pilot, but a couple of years ago, I got to fly a AT-6 Texan doing aerobatics.

We're up to TWO cookies now.

Originally posted by Vermillion
Admittedly, the instructor said that I had really good G tolerance for someone who doesn't fly regularly, and that most people would not have handled our flight so well ( I had bet him that he could not make me puke when I got off the airplane, he tried his damndest.... heheheheheheheh).

So basically, what you're saying is that an aerobatics flight instructor is saying the same thing I am (minus your putting words into his mouth)?  If he says "you have really good G tolerance", and "most people would not have handled the flight so well", isn't he basically saying that "for most people, it would take some getting used to?"  That it affects each person differently?

YOU just lost your 2nd cookie, pal!

Originally posted by Vermillion
But don't make assumptions that most people will instantly pass out at 2-3 G's.  Hell, even rollercoasters pull sustained 2-3 G's.

That's not what I said, not at any time did I say that.  You're so busy making assumptions, you can't even tell the forest from the trees, can you!  You *MUST* be a Democratic voter.

What I *DID* say, was that *MY* G tolerance is probably lower than usual, and that *I* would black out at 4 or 5G.  I also said that MOST people (on the AVERAGE) are KNOWN to black out in the range of 7-9G in the absence of proper equipment.  What I did *NOT* say, was that "most people will instantly pass out at 2-3 G's".

I am a part of this community, and I'm here to stay.  Deal.

Casper
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Edited to correct HTML formatting (removed "bold" tags)

[Vermillion]

Keep yapping Casper, like the little puppy that you are.  Just don't be pissy in six months when the community gives you ZERO respect and basically flames you for every little thing.  Because we've seen your type come and go many times.  Its nothing new.

*Yawn*

[gofaster]

Originally posted by Vermillion
I'm not a "real" pilot, but a couple of years ago, I got to fly a AT-6 Texan doing aerobatics.  And we performed several manuevers up 5 G's for several seconds.  I didn't even tunnel vision except for one time I wasn't paying attention, banged my head on the canopy, and was not ready for the manuever (think it was a split S) and I had a slight tunneling of my vision.  And yes I have proof if you really want to see it.

Admittedly, the instructor said that I had really good G tolerance for someone who doesn't fly regularly, and that most people would not have handled our flight so well ( I had bet him that he could not make me puke when I got off the airplane, he tried his damndest.... heheheheheheheh).

I was there on the tarmac when Verm did it, too.  Afterwards we sat around and watched his video.  I still have the tape in the garage (though most of our VHSs are getting tossed in favor of DVD nowadays, so we may not have it much longer).

I've pulled 3Gs on rollercoasters.  Reminded me alot of the adrenalin rush I get when dogfighting in a Hellcat.