i hope this isnt what we are comming to.

[SwampRat]

I completely understand this fellow's point of view, figure the old saying "to each his own" is in order.  I get a little irritated when I see 5-6 v 1 but not because it's a gangbang, to me it show's how goofy the extra 4 or 5 pileit's are...then eventually  I find myself BEING one of those gangbangin goofballs <slaps forhead>, it's the nature of the game.  (Incindentally Leph, it doesn't have to be "My SA sucks Rocks" issue, not everyone is like you).  I find myself taking the same stance on HO's...I HATE when other's EVEN TRY to HO me, Then I slap myself again when I find myself doing it...how many of us can say we don't do the same thing when the need arises??  YOU CAN?...liar.  Some folks just get too involved and frustrated.  When I do, I use that neat "Quit" feature, works wonder's when this killer game becomes opposite what it should be, fun.
SwampRat

[Lephturn]

anRky,

I'm not saying you have to deal with bad odds that way, I'm just pointing out one way to do it.  If you want, dive in with a turnfighter and TnB till' ya puke!  Just don't complain that you got "gangbanged" when you get killed... that's what happens when the odds are not in your favour.    Also, I'll point out that what I do is not "make a few passes and get a kill or two if the enemy is sleeping".  What I do is take an E fighter, get to the fight with an E advantage, and work with it.  I target the guy with the most E, and work him with good E fighting tactics until he is either dead, or dives to the safety of his buddies.  Then I pick on the next victim.  Many times I just end up in great energy fights one after another, either working my way down the furball, or engaging new folks that arrive with E to threaten me.

SwampRat,

I know not everybody is "like me".  My point is that the tools are there for everybody to KNOW what the odds are roughly.  The sector counters are available to all.  If you don't pay attention to them, that's bad SA in my book.  If you are flying very close to an enemy airbase with active fighter hangars, you can expect to be outnumbered as your buddies get shot down and the enemy just launches more and more.  Not realizing that the odds will turn when fighting at the enemy field is bad SA in my book.  Bottom line, you almost always know the odds going into the fight if you look.  If you still choose to fight that way fine.  Just don't complain about "gangbanging" when you knowingly entered that situation.

Do I sometimes "gangbang"?  Of course, why wouldn't I?  The only reason I can see not to gangbang is to counter other threats.  If we just wiped out 10 enemy planes with 20 of our guys, joining the 8 guys chasing that last La7 around isn't a good idea.  I'll take that time to grab some altitude, check my fuel and ammo, and get ready to meet those guys we just killed when they arrive in a few minutes REALLY pissed off at us for killing 'em.    Now if we just took their base, and the next one is 2 sectors away and I'm low on gas and ammo?  Hell yeah, I'll dive in on the last con or two and take a whack at them with the other 10 guys.  I won't feel a bit bad about it either.  

Now a note about HO's.  I LOVE it when somebody tries to HO me.  It's great, it hands me both E and angle advantages at the merge when they try it.  I only get pissed when I screw up and they nail me in the HO.  That's natural.    I just try to check myself up, beat my ego down, and realize I died because I SCREWED UP, not because the other guy did anything bad.  I don't feel bad about taking an HO shot either.  The only reason I don't do it most times is because it's a bad risk.  However, when somebody in a C.202 lines up HO with my P-47, I'll explode him HO with glee and laugh as I fly through the explosion.  I'll do whatever is in my best interests.  When I don't HO and don't gangbang I'm not trying to "be nice" or anything silly like that, it's jut not the smart thing to do in that situation.

I'm no different than anyone else though.  I sometimes do stupid stuff, get frustrated, etc.  I busted my headset one night when I did something particularly stupid and got killed, then ripped my headset off so violently I busted it in half.    Usually I'll just exit and give myself an attitude check.  However, I've been around this here block enough times to know that the problem is me and my attitude, not the game or the other players.  I die because I screw up, regardless of how badly I want to blame it on something other than my own failure.  As much as we all hate to admit it, 99.995% of the time we die because we screwed up.  Ya need to repeate that quote from TopGun:  "The Defense Department regrets to inform you that your sons are dead because they were stupid."  It's tough to admit that to yourself, but it's the truth for all of us.

SwampRat it sounds like you have this part wired as well.    If your frustrated and mad, just log off for a while.  You'll come back later more relaxed and have more fun if you do.

------------------
Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer

A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com

Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH articles and training info!

[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 05-03-2001).]

[anRky]

Lephturn:
-------------------------------------------
If you want, dive in with a turnfighter and TnB till' ya puke!  Just don't complain that you got "gangbanged" when you get killed... that's what happens when the odds are not in your favour.      
-------------------------------------------

Diving into a gangbang isn't what I *want* to do all the time, but more often than not, it's about all there *is* to do.

And I never complain in the MA about getting gangbanged.  Sometimes I ask the other side on Ch1 to only send 4 or 5 after me, instead of the whole 10 or 15, but I don't expect them to listen or comply.    If I ever say anything else to the enemy in the MA, it's either a taunt, to try to get them to attack me, or occasionally a 'fun fight' or 'good kill' after the fight if it's deserved.

I *do* come in here sometimes and express my frustration when the only fights I can find every night are gangbangs (whether its my side or the other doing the gangbanging).

And whatever you call it, spending 30 or 40 minutes a night of my hour or so of fighting time climbing over the enemy, because there are almost always 5 or more of them to the one of me isn't what I call fun.  Neither is flying with my countrymen when there are very often 5 of them to every enemy.

You are right about the attitude part.  Sadly, it's the inability to find a fun fight(FUN, not fair, not easy, and I don't even have to come close to winning it) that gives me a negative attitude.  I take a break, come back feeling much better, then the negative attitude comes back when all I find is either a gangbang, or I run my tanks dry looking for a fight.

anRky

[Siggi]

I must admit AH makes me very agressiv too (90% of the time). Never ever before had i hated my oppponents as much as in this game.
To be jumped by 5 ennemies isn't what pisses me off, but beeing jumped by one N1K2, one Lag7, one Spit, one 190 and on top of that one Chog, makes me wanna pull out my gun, capture an Airliner, fly over to find you, and shoot you on the spot.

Man, couple of weeks ago i was clobbered by 5 Mustangs in my 109, and man, while hanging on the chute I had tears in my eyes. What a beautifull kill and i was honored.

Maybe it is because of this political correct Bishop/Rooks/Knight thing. In EAW, the sim i played before online on the Zone, we had all this proud Allies Squads, flying against proud Axis Squads. Everybody stuck to their 2 or 3 beloved a/c, and we had no hard feelings for our ennemies. I know AH is a total different concept, but think about it what would happen, if you choose a side with a clear defined planeset. Maybe it would move the focus from what-shall-i fly-in-here-to-kill-kill-kill, over to a very importend thing i think we have lost here in AH: The Roleplay.

Cheers

[R4M]

For almost 3/4 of the total time I have spent at AH, I've been a lonewolfer, most of the time on a plane not able to get out of trouble by speed, the Fw190A5. Even though I am again in a squad, I still fly more lonewolf sorties than with wingman. I think because lonewolf tactics are now part of my way of flying.

Anyway, the Main arena is full of enemy planes who will dive on you, hit you until you are blown apart and then they will rip apart the remnants just in case. And they wont go one on one but en masse. Why should they go alone?.

I can tell that I find still lots of 1 on 1s, not so much as I'd like, but still enough. And I can tell you that if you dont want to see multiple enemy cons screwing up your lonely plane, then fly with a wingman.

To leave AH because the MA is a vulchfest, and you cant stand it, is IMO a good reason. IF you cant stand a vulchfest, the MA is not a place you will like, because since Tour1 (when I first came here) until this TOD, it has remained this way.



[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 05-03-2001).]

[Don]

Interesting. I read what Robert's mate had to say and wondered if I were still in the AWMV arena  
I came to AH along with my squadmates from Air Warrior looking for a sim that wouldn't continue to let us down. I/we are not surprised by what we have seen so far. Much of what robert wrote I have found to be true, some of it though, is in the eyes of the beholder.
Why would I be surprised by a competitive environment that brings out the best and, as we all know, sometimes the worst in our competitors? Gangbanging? Hell, I've seen gangbanging which left me both disappointed and feeling sorry for my nmez. There is always a bright side though. Those dweebs who would dive down (giving up E) to jump all over one low and slow nme, aren't the brightest bulb in the bin. Consequently, they make themselves targets and vulnerable.
If I want a one v one environment, then I ought to go to a dog fighting arena where that can be done. In any main arena there are going to be those who will do anything for a kill, and why not? They are paying for the thrill just as the rest of us are.
Fortunately, for most pilits this is not the way of the fighter pilot  
This is what I do know:
That the main things is to have a sim that WON'T let you down.
That will continue to improve and evolve
That will listen to the customers, and have respect for them
That will have some kind of standards and provide a challenging and enjoyable experience.
All of the other stuff can be personal and is peripheral stuff.
If a guy goes on CH1 to taunt me, I can ignore him/her or give it back depending on my mood   I suppose this is part of the service I am paying for  

I for one am enjoying this new place, and am trying to learn to keel all over again in a new place   I am looking forward to the experience, which is why I chose to pay to play. If I don't like a movie, I leave, and Robert's former squaddie seems to have reached that conclusion for himself; it just wasn't trippin his trigger anymore. I hope he finds that environment he is looking for.

[Don]

Hehe, I know Anarky from AW, as an nme and also as a group mate in a scenario. AWers are accustomed to fighting, and the way the AW arena became, the fights degenerated to two countries ganging one, practically all the time. It became a place where what you learned in AW, if you started flying before the AW gene pool degenerated, was no longer true. Flying with strat and use of acm and good SA gave way to hordes of dweebs who flew badly, had no SA, and would pork an undefended base sooner than have a fight with an nme. It drove many away from that place. For some I guess, it is kinda disappointing to see some of the same things happening in AH. To add perspective here though, there are an awful lot of folks flying in here now, from other sims like WB and AW and others. It wouldn't surprise me to find out that the alt monkees from AW hadn't established themselves here in AH  
This is the way they fly folks, and with the increase in numbers here, there are going to be some serious adjustments to be made on everyones part.

[Lephturn]

anRky,

Part of this is just the nature of a mega-player online simulation.  One of the reasons I play this game is because I can BnZ a 30 plane furball!  That means that sometimes, you are going to get times where it is tough to find a low numbers fight.  However much of the time when there is big numbers in an area on one side, the other side will put up big numbers as well and a huge fight ensues.  That fight will ebb and flow, and at times one side or the other will have numerical superiority in one local area.  The trick to it is to predict when that's going to happen, and position yourself to be around friendlies, be higher, or work the edges where there are only a couple of cons.

I rarely have trouble finding a fight, a reasonable one even.  The only time I do, is when some B17 or Lanc flies over at 20k and dumps the fighter hangars... be it ours or theirs.  That can ruin a good furball.  Other than that, I can almost always find a decent fight, even as a lone wolf.  There are things you do to arrange that, such as working around the perimeter of a big fight and finding nice 1v1's and such with the guys trying to sneak out and grab some altitude.

However, for a variety of reasons, there will be times that you may have trouble finding just the type of fight you want.  That's just the nature of the online flight sim beast.  It's a quickly changing, almost organic environment.  If you find yourself in the position of not finding what you want, you can also try the Dueling arena.  Shout out on CH1 and grab some like-minded folks for some fun 1v1 or free for all stuff in the dueling arena.  Or head to the training arena and work on 1v1's with different planes and such.  Of course there is alwas the H2H rooms, where you will find much smaller fights that might suite your mood.

Do whatever you have to, to have fun.  

------------------
Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer

A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com

Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH articles and training info!

[lazs]

anarky... you are correct and no one can tell you that you are having fun when you are not.  lep likes to fly a certain way and does not care if he spends an hour with no action so to him... there is nothing wrong with the way the "strat/sim" is layed out.. indeed, he can find more action than he wants.  

You, like me and a lot of others, feel that we could be better spending our time somewhere else if all we are doing is climbing and hiding.  For us... the hour or so we spend on line had better be action packed and with some parity or.. we can go work on our hot rods or clean guns or geeze... talk to the old lady... anything is better than droning around doing nothin!  The fites need a reason to exist tho for a lot of folk.   If the fields were easire to capture but had fighters available till they died then the fights would concentrate more near the front line fields and the "war" would move more rapidly.   Those who "e" fight at great altitude could still do as they please unafected.   Win/win.
lazs

[SirLoin]

I used to think that it was one big gangbang and that it was impossible to get some good one on one action.But then I realized I was always flying into a sector with multi con bars.Try flying to an enemy base with no cons.Take a drop tank and usually an enemy will up within minutes.Stay your distance and let him get some alt while flying away from ack.Ask enemy con on chat if he's rdy and voila! 1 on 1..And if you survive,he is more than likely to re-up and try again.Be sure to be a polite guest to his airspace though..

[pzvg]

Leph, Oh everyone treats you with respect, and it's fun to fly here? Hmmm
They don't even treat Hitech with respect
Fun to fly here? Yes perhaps, if you have an idea of fun that is radically different from the accepted standreds of normal human beings
All of you grand old heads please cut the crap, Maybe if you would all stop endorsing the worst behavior I've ever seen as "Just the way things are, you should have seen XXX- game back in the days" I did, it wasn't and it shouldn't be now.
A positively grand game with one minor flaw,
some of the people you have to share it with have the manners of a doorknob in a bordello.
And in a tip of the hat to the "if you can't take it get out" crowd. Don't see that one in the TOS, so why don't you get out, and take your foul smelling friends with you.
(the last part was analogy Leph, not aimed at you, I won't ever make a personal attack on the BB again, It doesn't solve things)
Seriously, If anyone here really truly thinks that things haven't gotten absurdly out of hand, then I offer it is you that needs to step back and take a breather, because you are in too deep.
Wilton (pzvg) Stewman

[Jekyll]

Whilst I can sympathise with your viewpoint Lazs, I simply cannot understand it.

You fly US evenings right?  With upwards of 150 online?  And you cannot find a fight?

I fly Australian evenings.  We have, on average, about 30 online.  And I can ALWAYS find a fight.

Maybe its just the US guys who spend so much time running and hiding?

------------------
Jekyll
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
Aces High Training Corps

[lazs]

maybe jekyl... I have no way of knowing.  

I do think that one of the problems is that having all those guys up is no guarentee that you will find parity.   The trend during these hours seems to be attacking in huge groups.  if the field has recently lost it's lean to's (fighter hangers) then you will be fighting an ever diminishing force of fighters and/or a buttload of osties.  If you go to a sector alone, with what looks like parity, there is no guarentee that by the time you get there you will not face 5/1 odds.  It is allmost certain that you will.  maybe with less guys it is easier to know where everyone is?
lazs

[Lephturn]

LOL lazs, I don't normally have any more than about an hour at a time to fly in the main.  I certainly don't want to spend an hour or mour with no action, and I don't have to.  Proceding the way I mentioned above doesn't take much time, and it's often pretty action packed.  Not quite as much as if I dove into the fray with a Zeke I'm sure, but plenty of fun.

Heck, I don't think I go more than 5-10 minutes MAX without finding a scrap.  It's just not that tough.  And lazs, your definition of E fighting needs work my friend.  Just because you choose a plane that excells in E fighting doesn't mean you spend all of your time climbing and running.  Far from it.  Although there are some things that could maybe be changed to improve the arena, I don't think your charaterization of the arena is one i agree with.  I just don't see that when I'm online.

pzvg, I'm just relating my experience.  I don't get called names in the arena very often, it's quite rare.  Occasionally there is some dweeb mouthing off, but a quik squelch fixes that, but honsetly I haven't used a squelch in months.  I'm not saying there aren't some folks with questionable characters around in the game, I'm just relating my experience.  If somebody is acting that badly and I'm around, I'll just grab a few screenshots and forward them on to HTC privately.  I recommend you do the same.  Rest assured, if they are acting in a manner that is harmful to the community, HTC will do something about it.

------------------
Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer

A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com

Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH articles and training info!

[Fastbikkel]

"It's a mega-player game guys. There will always be situations where you are heavily out numbered, it's part of the game. The trick is to either avoid those situations or deal with them and do the best you can. We have to tools to do it." copied from lepthurn

I agree with ya Lep, totally. It is you own responsibility.

Greetings,

JG5FaBi.