Icons and Gunnery

[streakeagle]

First, I am only a "free-loading" head-to-head player, so feel free to flame and/or ignore anything I have to say  

I have read some posts arguing about the effects of turning icons off so gunnery and spotting aircraft would be more realistic. Particularly, the 1000 yard single-ping hits would be virtually eliminated.

I say instead of debating the merits, try it out and see how much you like it.

I will be the first to say I have become very dependent on the icons. The precise distance combined with a good sight can permit awesome accuracy at unusual ranges and deflection angles.

However, having played without icons quite a bit, I found myself adapting to the visual range cue provided by the size of the target and eventually getting nearly the same accuracy. This is only a subjective viewpoint though, since I don't know for certain the ranges at which I am scoring hits. But I do know for sure I still get my deflection shots after only a little practice. I am positive I have sprayed with 20mm hispanos and 0.50 cals, and have still gotten plenty of hits well beyond 500 yards.

For reference: I don't use tracers. I estimate lead, tap the trigger, look for hits, and repeat until target is going down for good, I am out of ammo, the target has escaped, or I am shot down. Once certain of the aiming point on a non-maneuvering target, I reserve the right to hold down the trigger  

As for spotting aircraft, having no icons does make it way more exciting   The computer may not quite accurately duplicate the visual acuity possible in reality, but it is good enough to have a great time without icons getting in the way. Of course identification of friendlies becomes way more difficult. I have news for you: unfortunately, even in this high-tech modern world, friendly kills are unavoidable. Most pilots didn't have Chuck Yeager's telescopic vision. Read about Vietnam pilots forced to use positive visual identification. A MiG-21 was just a spec on the windshield at 2 miles, so they had to get real close before seeing enough to get permission to open fire.

Of course the fact that the same planes are available to all sides and have the same markings makes the problem way more difficult if not downright impossible. But, despite the resulting complications, I find no icons to be both more realistic and more fun. Now if I could just get everyone else to agree to turn theirs off, since it greatly affects the frequency with which aircraft get bounced.

For all my love of ACM, in reality, 80% of all air-to-air kills ever made in every war (especially WWI and WWII!!!) were bounces with no ACM involved. For many (especially the targets), that means less fun. But if you really want realism, booming and zooming is how it was done. Whereas icons minimize undetected approaches and encourage endless furballing.

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[This message has been edited by streakeagle (edited 05-02-2001).]

[DeeZCamp]

I AGREE 100 and ten percent   I have asked Hitech about this and havent really received an Answer that would ever point to An ICONLESS simulation.  Streak Eagle You can however Turn the Enemy Icons OFF and still Keep your  Countries ON.  

[J_A_B]

Try this--make two arenas:

One with normal ICONS (normal being how they presently are)

One with NO ICONS (this would have to be an Axis vs Allies or something so different countries would be in different planes).


By the end of the first TOD, everyone knows which arena would be full, and which would be sitting around empty.  And, as the recent "C-hog perk campaign" proves, majority rules.  So my guess is ICONS are here to stay in the MA.

Nuff said    


But I'd LOVE to try a scenario with no ICONS at all some day.

J_A_B

[streakeagle]

Leaving the icons on for friendlies spoils all the fun   Lately, I have been frequently playing in HtH with no icons despite the fact that everyone else is using them. It has been way more fun (and challenging). I have yet to get experience doing teams with historical aircraft and no icons, but it is just a matter of time.

[hitech]

Steak eagle to compare icons off with a few people in a very small area is completely different than in a large arena. Quite simply the game is about combat, not flying around trying to find a fight or spending every min. scaning the skies for bogies.

The icon system may change some day, but no icons in the main areans is not an option.

HiTech

[Zigrat]

i agree hitech

while i definitely think the system could use a change, theres definitely no good way to completely rid yourself of it in the main arena

that bein said, could you make it a possibility to force no icons in h2h?

[hblair]

I agree with HT too. You can't completely lose icons in the main.

[Karaya One]

If I recall correctly, Warbirds did not have icons in the historical arena. Then they were tweaked higher and lower based on players feedback.

While it was more historical/Real, Hitech is correct: there was more time spent trying to find the bogeys instead of fighting them.

I too enjoy an icon-less arena, but you also need to factor in those who dont have large monitors or poor eyesight.

Also, in the end run, there wasnt enough players in the arena to justify its existance.

K1

[DeeZCamp]

Why would it be so hard to have ONLY Friendly Icons.. on and not enemies?.. My main and utter point to this IS Defensive/Offesive BFM/ACM CANNOT be truley played out with Enemy Icons on, Reason Being is that YOU have a BIG floating RED name/Range information over your head. It takes No skill or relativley SMALL situational Awareness to keep a Tally on the  bandit. With icons on for Enemy fighters, we might as well not have planes with special camo schemes right? The icon becomes the paint job  

Heres a Suggestion, How about Enemy Icons are shown until you are 2k in range, Then the Enemy ICons GO OFF. This would give you notice that 1. There is a con in the area, you see him. And 2. once you get to UNDER 2k distance, You have to actually keep track yourself on where the bandit is  

I wish this would be addressed  

[streakeagle]

As long as the radar is on in the main arena, the question is moot anyway. You have the con situation for the whole map as long as you bother to check it. I don't think turning off the icons would do much more than increase friendly fire hazards and degrade the average pilot's gunnery accuracy, which I think is more fun  

In my brief 2 week trial period (back in october? what a rush, thank you very much HTC), I noticed the mob furball between knights and bishes was the main attraction anyway. I realize that most people want to do nothing more than dogfight continuously.

Under the present system, the reality (and boredom) of having to make endless fighter sweeps over enemy territory to find enemy fighters is thoroughly avoided. I must admit that is a good thing considering how many hours actual fighter pilots wasted doing nothing but transiting and searching (I was a submarine sonar tech and know what it is like to literally spend weeks staring at a screen and listening to headsets without detecting a single contact).

But, the icon system almost copletely eliminates the primary factors utilized by all the real aces (that lived): patience and surprise. Many of the greatest aces were neither good gunners nor good fliers, just very smart and very alert. They only attacked when they were sure to win, because their long term success and very own life depended on it. I wish there was some way to set up the game so that people always flew as if living to fly home and fight another day was the most important thing, yet still let everyone get the exciting dogfighting rush that they paid for. But alas, realism is boring and money is too scarce to waste paying to fly through empty space wondering when and where the next attack will come from.