Author Topic: German svastika  (Read 4693 times)

Offline ergRTC

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German svastika
« Reply #90 on: January 12, 2003, 10:22:48 PM »
You are absolutely right.  The union was a much different place then.  But....  Everyone, by 1850 understood the ramifications of 'leaving' the union.  Nationalism was rising, the state was still a very powerful part of the government, but the USA as a group was becoming a part of peoples lives.  Just as the 'sawth' was instantly brotherly after seccesion.  

States had fought hard against other states leaving the union.  Even when it was the north doing it. I dont think this agreement of the union was as lose as you imagine at this point in america.  The north and the republicans were bending over backwards to appease the south at the federal level directly before the war, just to keep the congress happy.  

Was the south represented poorly in congress?  Did they not have  a say in the laws being passed?  Were not the states evenly divided at that point between slave and no slave?  Yes, but the rich politicians saw that this situation would not continue, no matter what they did.  Even the vice president of the confederacy thought it was a bad idea to secede when the democrats controlled congress.  They could have done it legally.


Here is a bit about the confederate  vp from fordham


Alexander H. Stephens (1812-1883), although originally opposed to secession, was elected vice-president of the Confederacy. After the war he returned to political service in Georgia and in the House of Representatives. He was elected governor of Georgia in 1882 and died in office.

We are in the midst of one of the greatest epochs in our history. The last ninety days will mark one of the most memorable eras in the history of modern civilization.

... we are passing through one of the greatest revolutions in the annals of the world-seven States have, within the last three months, thrown off an old Government and formed a new. This revolution has been signally marked, up to this time, by the fact of its having been accomplished without the loss of a single drop of blood. [Applause.] This new Constitution, or form of government, constitutes the subject to which your attention will be partly invited.

In reference to it, I make this first general remark: It amply secures all our ancient rights, franchises, and privileges. All the great principles of Magna Chartal are retained in it. No citizen is deprived of life, liberty, or property, but by the judgment of his peers, under the laws of the land. The great principle of religious liberty, which was the honor and pride of the old Constitution, is still maintained and secured. All the essentials of the old Constitution, which have endeared it to the hearts of the American people, have been preserved and perpetuated.... So, taking the whole new Constitution, I have no hesitancy in giving it as my judgment, that it is decidedly better than the old. [Applause.] Allow me briefly to allude to some of these improvements. The question of building up class interests, or fostering one branch of industry to the prejudice of another, under the exercise of the revenue power, which gave us so much trouble under the old Constitution, is put at rest forever under the new. We allow the imposition of no duty with a view of giving advantage to one class of persons, in any trade or business, over those of another. All, under our system, stand upon the same broad principles of perfect equality. Honest labor and enterprise are left free and unrestricted in whatever pursuit they may be engaged in ....

But not to be tedious in enumerating the numerous changes for the better, allow me to allude to one other-though last, not least: the new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions-African slavery as it exists among us-the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson, in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old Constitution were, that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with; but the general opinion of the men of that day was, that, somehow or other, in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. This idea, though not incorporated in the Constitution, was the prevailing idea at the time. The Constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly used against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the idea of a Government built upon it-when the "storm came and the wind blew, it fell."

Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition. [Applause.] This, our new Government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science. It is so even amongst us. Many who hear me, perhaps, can recollect well that this truth was not generally admitted, even within their day. The errors of the past generation still clung to many as late as twenty years ago. Those at the North who still cling to these errors with a zeal above knowledge, we justly denominate fanatics. All fanaticism springs from an aberration of the mind; from a defect in reasoning. It is a species of insanity. One of the most striking characteristics of insanity, in many instances, is, forming correct conclusions from fancied or erroneous premises; so with the anti-slavery fanatics: their conclusions are right if their premises are. They assume that the negro is equal, and hence conclude that he is entitled to equal privileges and rights, with the white man.... I recollect once of having heard a gentleman from one of the Northern States, of great power and ability, announce in the House of Representatives, with imposing effect, that we of the South would be compelled, ultimately, to yield upon this subject of slavery; that it was as impossible to war successfully against a principle in politics, as it was in physics or mechanics. That the principle would ultimately prevail. That we, in maintaining slavery as it exists with us, were warring against a principle-a principle founded in nature, the principle of the equality of man. The reply I made to him was, that upon his own grounds we should succeed, and that he and his associates in their crusade against our institutions would ultimately fail. The truth announced, that it was as impossible to war successfully against a principle in politics as well as in physics and mechanics, I admitted, but told him it was he and those acting with him who were warring against a principle. They were attempting to make things equal which the Creator had made unequal.

In the conflict thus far, success has been on our side, complete throughout the length and breadth of the Confederate States. It is upon this, as I have stated, our social fabric is firmly planted; and I cannot permit myself to doubt the ultimate success of a full recognition of this principle throughout the civilized and enlightened world.

As I have stated, the truth of this principle may be slow in development, as all truths are, and ever have been, in the various branches of science. It was so with the principles announced by Galileo-it was so with Adam Smith and his principles of political economy. It was so with Harvey, and his theory of the circulation of the blood. It is stated that not a single one of the medical profession, living at the time of the announcement of the truths made by him, admitted them. Now, they are universally acknowledged.

Offline ergRTC

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German svastika
« Reply #91 on: January 12, 2003, 10:23:22 PM »
May we not therefore look with confidence to the ultimate universal acknowledgment of the truths upon which our system rests? It is the first Government ever instituted upon principles in strict conformity to nature, and the ordination of Providence, in furnishing the materials of human society. Many Governments have been founded upon the principles of certain classes; but the classes thus enslaved, were of the same race, and in violation of the laws of nature. Our system commits no such violation of nature's laws. The negro by nature, or by the curse against Canaan, [note: A reference to Genesis, 9:20-27, which was used as a justification for slavery] is fitted for that condition which he occupies in our system. The architect, in the construction of buildings, lays the foundation with the proper material-the granite-then comes the brick or the marble. The substratum of our society is made of the material fitted by nature for it, and by experience we know that it is the best, not only for the superior but for the inferior race, that it should be so. It is, indeed, in conformity with the Creator. It is not for us to inquire into the wisdom of His ordinances or to question them. For His own purposes He has made one race to differ from another, as He has made "one star to differ from another in glory."

The great objects of humanity are best attained, when conformed to his laws and degrees [sic], in the formation of Governments as well as in all things else. Our Confederacy is founded upon principles in strict conformity with these laws. This stone which was rejected by the first builders "is become the chief stone of the corner" in our new edifice.

--------------------------


Now, if that doesnt smack you of how the south got riled up into this war I dont know what would.

1/20 fiscal policy (which he should have been able to control with control of congress).

19/20 beat the black guy.


Who do you think he was speaking to?  Why do you think the southerners fought?

When did this attitude change?  Has it for many?  Does race bating like this still work?  Strom made some great remarks back in 1948 along the lines of "They will make you go to church with them".  I seriously dont think the south fought the civil war over tariffs.  I seriously dont think 'southerners' in general would have left the union over fiscal policy.  Do you?

Offline VOR

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« Reply #92 on: January 12, 2003, 11:48:08 PM »
Oy Vey! This thread still going? :D

Offline Slash27

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German svastika
« Reply #93 on: January 13, 2003, 01:32:12 AM »
I'll bet erg goes to Civil War battle re-enactments and heckels the Confederates.



  Intresting posts Hawk and erg, good stuff.     I have one question for you erg.  Where and when did you run into these "sawtherners" that are still mad about the war and are plotting the remtach?  I've been in the south 23 of my 29 years and have never been involved in, or heard a conversation about getting some payback on the damn yankees. Never.  So please describe the instance(s) in which you have been violated by these rouge rebels.

Offline Estes

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« Reply #94 on: January 13, 2003, 02:24:23 AM »
Man, This is getting really old having to read this over and over again, North vs South bollocks. I don't really give a damn about who won the war whatever but, I agree with slash about always trying your damndest to turn everthing into a north vs south thing. Please don't you think its time to burry the hatchet My 2 cents.


             Estes

Offline Shane

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German svastika
« Reply #95 on: January 13, 2003, 08:27:23 AM »
if only you guys spent as much time reading Shaw and/or learning how to use ACM as you do in posting all this junk.

:D
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Offline ergRTC

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German svastika
« Reply #96 on: January 13, 2003, 08:59:50 AM »
Yeah I could annoy people in completely new ways shane!

I dont understand hangmans and slashes comment about sawtherners though.  I have not met a full blooded white southerner that did feel that an affront to the confederacy was worse than beating up on the US.  I guess you two can widen my perspective.

Here is a test for you....

1. Who is strom thrumond?

2.  Who is Jesse Helms?

3.  Why do they keep getting elected?

4.  Which would get you killed faster:
         Standing near the capitol of Alabama and burning the us flag?
         Standing near the capitol of Alabama and burning the confederate flag?

I have spent some time in richmond (thats what I call 'the deep sawth' up north), and I hang out with a reasonable number of regular joe virginians here, as well as deal with them on a regular bases.  I am not daft, and do not wear blinders to these things.  Perhaps since I was raised in a liberal mixed race 'northern' community I see these things more easily, as they stand out to me.  

My last great encounter was at the liqour store across from Fort Myer.  

50 yr old guy behind the counter I will refer to as 'jeb'

jeb: So I see your from DC (looking at my liscense)

Dan: Yep.  

jeb:  Great city, used to live there years and years ago.  Loved the trolley cars.  Course I moved out in the 70s.

Dan:  Really?  I wish they still had the trolley.  Why did you move?

jeb:  Golly-geened colored folk moved in and ruined the place.  No way in hell I was gonna raise my kids next to them!

Dan: Thanks...  Thats too bad...  bye now.

Offline CurtissP-6EHawk

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German svastika
« Reply #97 on: January 13, 2003, 04:56:39 PM »
ergRTC these guys may be right about letting this go, however, I have enjoyed reading your replys. I will reread you last few post again and I may reply to them in closing.

Untill then
« Last Edit: January 14, 2003, 11:47:33 PM by CurtissP-6EHawk »

Offline ergRTC

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German svastika
« Reply #98 on: January 13, 2003, 05:16:40 PM »
Yeah, we have beaten this dusty skeleton of a horse for a few days now.  We should be looking for a new thread to hijack...

Course, you guys think this is bad, dude you gotta read the toejam that has been going on in the general discussion.  Talk about lame.  That discussion is only a hair better than reading channel 1 in the ma during prime time.  Even HTC himself came in and opened a can of woop bellybutton on those losers.  :D

Offline Jester

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German svastika
« Reply #99 on: January 13, 2003, 05:32:14 PM »
Erg & Hawk, Damn! You two need to run for Congress! You would fit right in! You guys just need to meet on the Courthouse lawn at high noon and leg wrestle to the death. Hijacker, call me and we will arrange it. Got details to arrange like seconds, weapons and who will bring the Beer and BBQ. :D

Naso- about "American Bashing" - at least our chicks shave their pitts! :D

Shane - Get knotted! ;)


Man! This thread sure took some wild turns didn't it! Went from Swastikas on German planes, to the Osbournes, to trailer trash, Geography lesson, Jackie Gleason, to a refight of the Civil War! Damn I am tired from reading this post! LOL!
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Offline ergRTC

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German svastika
« Reply #100 on: January 13, 2003, 05:34:46 PM »
been through the desert on a horse with no name....

Offline cajun

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« Reply #101 on: January 13, 2003, 09:55:19 PM »
lol what a thread this is...

Were this any other forum I visit then AH BB it'd have been locked or moved to offtopic board at least a loooonnngggg time ago.

I place $0.10 on hawk!
;)

Offline Slash27

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German svastika
« Reply #102 on: January 14, 2003, 04:48:42 PM »
FYI   from now on keep your posts light hearted. I was "red flagged" by HT on another post for mildly joking with Hang.

Offline ergRTC

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« Reply #103 on: January 14, 2003, 04:57:12 PM »
Yeah, wow I just saw that.  I guess shane wont be posting anymore!

Offline Slash27

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« Reply #104 on: January 14, 2003, 05:11:23 PM »
me either:D