Author Topic: Somebody just cloned a girl  (Read 1592 times)

Offline hblair

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Somebody just cloned a girl
« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2002, 10:47:59 AM »
Could we clone up a dude with my looks and lazs aim?

Offline Thud

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Somebody just cloned a girl
« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2002, 11:03:39 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
that is what the Clone Abortion clinics will be for ....

"She's not perfect like me, lets remove it and try again please....."


LOL of course, never leave a post about children, birth or babies out on the streets unattended where a pro-lifer can see it, it will be abducted/hijacked immediately...

Offline Wlfgng

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Somebody just cloned a girl
« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2002, 11:07:38 AM »
it'll all turn out just fine.. don't you guys ever watch the Twilight Zone or Start Trek?  jeez.. by then we won't care that we all look alike (yikes)

Offline miko2d

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Somebody just cloned a girl
« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2002, 11:11:02 AM »
hblair: What reasons then?

 I will just list only a few of them briefly without much substantiation. That does not mean there is no substantiation. Also, this case is personal. It can be generalised but only to a certain degree.

 1. Knowing myself intimately - personality traits, abilities, etc., I could provide my clone child with upbringung and education much more conducive to his development and realisation of his potentials and talents - unlike with regular "random" child where it's trial and error process against the active resistance of a child.
 The child will have more trust in my judgements since I would have very good idea how he feels about things.
 Of course it goes without saying that I am satisfied with my personality traits as well as my physique enough to wish them on my child.

 2. My IQ is 130+ even now, my wife's, adjusting for narrower sigma of women would translate to similar genetic potentiality. Statistics, specifically the principle of reversal to the mean, suggests that average intelligence of our children would be quite lower than ours. There is a great chance that the clone would be smarter than a natural child who's place he takes - assuming the number of children is held constant.

 With those two items there is a great chance that I will have a person more capable than myself (due to more fully-realised potentials and somewhat better nutrition) who would most likely adopt the same philosophy and worldview that I ended up adopting. Including having no problems with being cloned or being saddled with extra responcibility.
 So when I am gone, he could look after his siblings the way I would and hold the family/clan together. Obviously, I would try to bring up all my children willing to take care of each other, but only with a clone I am practically guaranteed a success.

 Of course there is a benefit of having compatible organs available but they would be expected to go his way, not mine.

 I could list more but those are the major ones.

 miko

Offline miko2d

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Somebody just cloned a girl
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2002, 11:19:15 AM »
Thud: LOL of course, never leave a post about children, birth or babies out on the streets unattended where a pro-lifer can see it, it will be abducted/hijacked immediately...

 It is a valid concern, though, integral to the matter of cloning. Cloning does have a considerable chance of producing malformed children. Unlike with animal research, we have advanced and pretty accurate pre-natal diagnostics and financial/moral insentive to screen such cases before birth.

 For this single girl born, many pregnancies most likely aborted spontaneously - much like 25% of natural pregnancies are - and quite a few must have been terminated intentionally.

 Some people might have problems with that - especially if their tax money are used to subcidise such activities.

 miko

Offline Pongo

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Somebody just cloned a girl
« Reply #35 on: December 27, 2002, 11:24:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
Thud: All animal clones have been suffering from defunct livers, hearts and more or less all the other vital organs.

 There is a huge difference between cloning animals and humans, so you would naturally expect much higher ratio of animals being born defective than humans.

 miko


Did you really post that...lol
Love your logic..
If there had been no issues with animals then would you naturally expect lots of troubles with humans...

Offline LePaul

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Somebody just cloned a girl
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2002, 11:26:21 AM »
I just hope its a good looking chick and not a Rosie O'Donell

Yes yes, clone more Cindy Crawfords, Ashley Judds, etc  :D

Offline Gunthr

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Somebody just cloned a girl
« Reply #37 on: December 27, 2002, 11:55:10 AM »
If you look closely at the clone donor you can easily see that she is definately an alien:

Here
"When I speak I put on a mask. When I act, I am forced to take it off."  - Helvetius 18th Century

Offline miko2d

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Somebody just cloned a girl
« Reply #38 on: December 27, 2002, 11:55:47 AM »
Pongo: Did you really post that...lol
Love your logic..
If there had been no issues with animals then would you naturally expect lots of troubles with humans...


 I can see that you posted this "sarcastic" remark at 12:24 - 5 minutes later than 12:19 when I posted a quite comprehencive explanation why there will be much lower proportion of defective humans born than animals.
 It's right above your post.

 But I guess since you apparently have problems recongizing applicable information by yourself and have to be pointed to every little thing explicitely, I can repeat it for you in a simplified manner.

  My opinion is certainly not based on just the fact that humans are not animals - not the least because humans are animals. I just though that most people who could read my post would understand that by "animals" I ment "laboratory animals" which humans are very different from for plenty of real tangible reasons. Having money, religion, right to vote and access to lawyers are just some of them.

 First. The technology available for non-destructive fetus testing of various kinds of lab animals is nowhere as developed and extensive as one existing for humans. I am talking about amniosynthesis, various kinds of scanning, direct viewing through optical devcies, measuring and analyzing fetuses - that many pregnant woman gladly pay for now. There was never need or financial insentive to come up with it for lab animals. Birth of a defective mouse or even a goat was never as much a tragedy as birth of a defective human.

 Second. Even if such technology were awailable for every kind of laboratory animal (some are impossible due to small size of most lab animals), it would be too expencive to use it on lab animals anyway. It costs thousands of dollars per case. Much easier and cheaper to allow defective animals to be born and then destroy them. Also, no moral or legal issues.

 Unlike lab nimals, human fetuses can be non-destructively tested in-utero in many different ways to assure they are fine. Any defective fetuses are aborted quite early. It does make sense to spend few thousand dollars for diagnostics per human pregnancy, unlike an animal pregnancy, especially in scientific experiment. It has already cost them millions. What's a few more hundreds of thousands to detect and abort abnormal pregnancies?

  Experiments on humans are conducted very differently than experiments on laboratory animals. Is that enough logic for you?


 So as I've said, "...you would naturally expect much higher ratio of animals being born defective than humans".

 miko
« Last Edit: December 27, 2002, 12:01:38 PM by miko2d »

Offline udet

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Somebody just cloned a girl
« Reply #39 on: December 27, 2002, 01:25:26 PM »
Can I order myself a clone of Raquel Welch? I'm willing to wait till she grows up :D

Offline Wlfgng

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Somebody just cloned a girl
« Reply #40 on: December 27, 2002, 01:32:27 PM »
hmm.. what a great idea for a new company ;)

Offline StSanta

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Somebody just cloned a girl
« Reply #41 on: December 27, 2002, 02:48:34 PM »
StSanta or any other progressive thinking science boy, why would someone want to clone another person? Is there a reason someone would want to do this? I mean other than just so they could say they did it

Heh, religious conviction. That doctor is a member of a scet (actually a minister) called Raelian. They believe that life on planet Earth was populated by aliens that modified DNA and put it on our planet. Jesus, Buddha etc were 'ambassadors' to the people who had to work under the conditions of the day - thus not being able to tell the truht, but inventing God stories. Their current 'Guide of guides' (their words, not mine) says he's the current prophet and have been told that the time is right to set up alien embassies on earth.

At any rate, it is their religious belief that coning humans should be done. Only Raelian cult followers will ahve themselves cloned in the future, and thereby 'living forever' (their words again).

So you see Hblair, the problem isn't us 'science boys'. The problem, as usual (you set yourself up for this :D) is religious nutcases who uses a tool inappropriately.

I'm 100% against the cloning of humans. On medical grounds (because lots of failures, odd mutations etc) and on ethical grounds (we do not know what we're dealing with here). Morally, I think it's disgusting to be so self absorbed as to want a copy of oneself.

Offline Animal

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Somebody just cloned a girl
« Reply #42 on: December 27, 2002, 02:52:27 PM »
^^^ Agreed



-Jango Fett

Offline Toad

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Somebody just cloned a girl
« Reply #43 on: December 27, 2002, 02:55:59 PM »
If they went to all that trouble, I hope they cloned a babe-ette.

It this thing doesn't work out....... I hope they'll accept the responsibility. Not like you'll be smiled upon if you put it down like a sick dog.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline StSanta

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Somebody just cloned a girl
« Reply #44 on: December 27, 2002, 03:04:30 PM »
Miko wrote:

1. Knowing myself intimately - personality traits, abilities, etc., I could provide my clone child with upbringung and education much more conducive to his development and realisation of his potentials and talents - unlike with regular "random" child where it's trial and error process against the active resistance of a child.
The child will have more trust in my judgements since I would have very good idea how he feels about things.
Of course it goes without saying that I am satisfied with my personality traits as well as my physique enough to wish them on my child.


Mm, but changing the conditions means the child will deviate from what you are. if brought up in an affluent family instead of a poor one for example, it might develop into another being, one that you potentially could have been. This might alter his personality so much that you will not know more about what/how he feels than about a natural child.

Find a mate who have physique and mental traits that you're satisfied with. Combine your DNAs and you should have a child that's gonna do well in life. It's the  the ultimate form of...what's the English word...being all to happy about oneself, egoistic and generally full of oneself? Well, that word.

2. My IQ is 130+ even now, my wife's, adjusting for narrower sigma of women would translate to similar genetic potentiality. Statistics, specifically the principle of reversal to the mean, suggests that average intelligence of our children would be quite lower than ours. There is a great chance that the clone would be smarter than a natural child who's place he takes - assuming the number of children is held constant.

Mine is 138 (at least last time I took a two day evaluation by a psychiatrist). I'll find an acceptable mate and give my half of the traits to the child. No need for cloning there; there's plenty of smart, attractive women in the world. In addition, there are some worrying mental and physical traits that I'd like to water out, and finding a decent mate is a good way to do so. Genetic diversity is also important and if everyone started cloning themselves and this was how we reproduced, eventually small mutations would cumulate, with a devastating result.

With those two items there is a great chance that I will have a person more capable than myself (due to more fully-realised potentials and somewhat better nutrition) who would most likely adopt the same philosophy and worldview that I ended up adopting.

There's no guarantee for that. Humans are open books in many regards. You'll have the base architecture done, but within those limits, the actual code might be very different. He might have your limitations and capacity *potentially*, but how much he realises of it depends on the conditions. He'll be subjected to much different conditions than you were and this will make his 'code' unique. he might even adopt opposing views. that would be a squeak - disagreeing with what is in a physical respect yourself.

Of course, if you make the assumption that what we are has more to do with nature or nurture your point might be valid. One would have to have lots of evidence to support it, and from what I've read, both camps have extensive evidence supporting their claim, so the truth probably is somewhere in the middle of the two.

Of course there is a benefit of having compatible organs available but they would be expected to go his way, not mine.

That would be an advantage.