Too voltile for the General Discussion...what's with La7s?

[Saurdaukar]

Originally posted by Kieran
You guys are going to absolutely crap your pants if the Ki-84 ever sees the MA...

Which is probably why it never will.

[Furious]

A question.

Some countries aircraft performance claims can be cross examined by other countries testings of these same aircraft.

For example, captured Fw's tested by Brits and US, Brit examples of Corsairs and F6F's, etc.



Did any allied nation test an example of any of the USSR's aircraft?


F.

ps. the ki84 is imo the second best looking radial engine craft of the war.

[Saurdaukar]

Originally posted by Furious

ps. the ki84 is imo the second best looking radial engine craft of the war.

That I will give it - very beautiful aircraft.  Its kinda got that whole "Jug, Typhie thing" going on.  A Juphie.

If we get it, I hope HT models the engine  falling out in flight.

[Wotan]

Read Here

And Here

Tilts Site

1944

With the La-5FN emerging as the dominant fighter on the Eastern front development was now also taken up by the Central Aero Hydrodynamics Institute (TsAGI)whose work was followed closely by Lavochkin. After failed attempts to incorporate the more powerful but unreliable Ash-71 engine it was realised that future development lay along the route of the proven but now fully developed Ash-82FNV unit from which no more hp could be extracted.

TsAGI therefore concentrated on improving the aerodynamic aspects of the type. From 16th December 1943 to the 10th February 1944 the La-5FN "206" underwent evaluation.

Refinements included

The spinner shape was made shorter and the hucks starter dog removed.
The oil cooler was housed more aerodynamically and relocated on the fuselage behind the wings
Engine cowling was simplified and number of panels reduced.
A new main wheel door was added to reduce drag over the wheel well.
The exhaust cover plates were reduced in size.
The super charger inlet was rehoused under the engine.
Performance was seen to significantly improve over the present production La-5FN adding 50km/hour to its top speed.

Before testing was complete Lavochkin was also tasked with the development of a "1944 model" of the La-5FN.

Accounts differ as to the exact specification of the "1944 model" however the following is generally accepted.

The 1944 model prototype was completed for mid January 1944 and first test flown on the 2nd of February where it immediately surpassed the low level maximum speed of not only the current La5FN but also the FW 190 A5 (597km/h to the FW's 560km/h). On the 16th February the aircraft was given to the state for testing. These continued until the 20th when engine problems occurred and reopened on the 8th March until the 27th March (despite an incident on the 22nd March which revealed that some key fuselage parts were lacking essential glue!)

However the results were outstanding. Top speed at 6000 metres was 680km/hr and climb rates were again significantly improved. The aileron and elevator control was further improved over production La5FN models whereby one handed operation of the joystick was possible in all circumstances.

Many of the advances developed in the La-5FN 206 had been incorporated with the following changes.

The super charger intake had been split and relocated in the wing roots
3 Beresin UB 20 cannons were incorporated
The landing gear struts were made longer
A new VISH 105 B-4 (anti flap) propellor had been fitted with automatic variable pitch control.
The wing to fuselage fillet plates had been redesigned
The cockpit cover had been redesigned (incorporating a roll bar)and a small access window added to the rear cockpit area.
Engine cowling design was further refined and sealed hermetically
Series production was immediately ordered however inorder to sustain present out put levels (La-5FN )and properly tool for the new design a 3 month plan was incorporated to manage the change over at the Gorkii plant (which had a large stock of La5 type wings)

La-7

The Moscow (GAZ 381)plant however went in to production of the new mark immediately. Now re named the La-7 Moscow had produced 5 more by the end of March and was wholly converted to La-7 production by the end of June. Gorkii's stock of La-5 wings meant that it continued La-5FN production up until the end of October 1944 albeit along side increasing La-7 production.

The model did not incorporate all of the developments of the 1944 model. The Beresin cannon were replaced with the ShVak units used to date on the La-5FN (but reintroduced on later 1945 models).Further some problems still persisted: not in the least was pilot discomfort due to cockpit over heating now made worse due to the elimination of the La-5FN's cockpit ventilation ducts and the hot oil pipes running under the floor. Additional ventilation ducts were later added to the wing roots to alleviate the problem.

Post production tests in June revealed a drop in performance due to production errors. Once these were solved a batch of 20 La-7's were included in "inservice trials"with the 63rd Guards Air Fighter Corps. During the trials they flew 462 combat sorties and shot down 55 enemy aircraft( 52 FW's & 3 109's) for 4 combat losses. Some engine failures were experienced and subsequently found to be due to dust intake through the now lower air intake. By October production was in full swing at both Gorkii and Moscow plants. The La-7 was proving the dominent aircraft of the eastern front. Out performing the latest FW190 A8 variant in all aspects of climb speed and manoeuverability.

Range was again reduced to achieve performance now limited to 655km

1945

By the end of hostilities on the Russian/German front over 3500 La-7 had been sent to front line guards units and over 5000 had been produced in total. Survivability and combat victories were the highest among those regiments flying the La-7. (Although it is also true to say that the La-7 was given to the best regiments).

Latterly the 3 Beresin cannon were added to the La-7 increasing fire power considerably, however only 368 of these fighters saw front line action.




Foot Notes

In his initial choices of birch and pine Gorbunov had indeed allowed the mass production of fighter aircraft using material native to Russia. Aircraft when manufactured were done so with a life expectancy under combat conditions of months rather than years. The wood was not treated with any preservative and so its natural life was not long by "normal air craft" standards. In deed only 2 examples of the La mark survive today. (Both La-7's one at Prague Kbely museum the other at Moscow Monino Museum) In fact the frames were so vulnerable to fungicidal attack that when a squadron was sent to a subtropical climate (after the war) all planes were grounded and lost due to weakened structural members so attacked.

One post war incident does reflect the design considerations undertaken by Lavochkins engineers. The country to operate La-7's and La-5FN's longest was in fact Czechoslovakia who maintained them operationally until 1950(Russia dropping the mark by 1947). In 1946 they grounded all but 2 of the mark on the basis of structural degradation. An investigation was conducted to find that the air frame strength had been reduced by half. After initial alarm it was later discovered that Lavochkins engineers had allowed for this in their calculations and that the craft were still fully combat worthy!

The la7 in ah imho is one of the toughest ac. They take more damage then a jug / f4f / f6f etc........... I dunno why considering the given what its made from.

[Eagler]

Originally posted by Nifty
it looks like a radial Spitfire.  

I thought it looked like a P-47 on crack

[Kieran]

About 2/3 the weight of a Jug with approximately the same hp.

[Nifty]

I think it's so beautiful that I just had to get my favorite plane's name in there somehow.  

If the Ki-84 is free, I might fly it more than my Spit V.  

Oh, I fly the La-7 when I need to get from point A to point B really fast.

[Kieran]

Well... the Ki-84 would be good enough to make everyone forget about Spits, La-7's, Nikkis, AND F4U1-Cs. That oughta be worth something.

[X2Lee]

Originally posted by LePaul
 But over and over again, dead to another La7.    

Anyone else getting a lil burnt out over this?  I love the fights I've had with other airplanes, tight turns, fending off the stall horn, scissoring, etc...its cool to mix it up with someone who is a master of their airplane.  But the La7 is just too good to be true.  Anyone can up the thing and be an Ace it seems..incredibly fast, great acceleration, incredible turner...need I go on?

I'm not saying perk em or eliminate em.  I tend to avoid them, preferring to fight other aircraft...again, just wondering if this Main Arena super fighter was truly this way in real life.

Most LAlalas I meet die     I like them in the arenas

[Karnak]

Ki.84 is good, but don't over do it in praising it.

Compared to the La-7:

Speed on the deck:
La-7: 380mph
Ki.84: 350-360mph (using Japanese fuel)

Top speed:
La-7: 410-415mph
Ki.84: 392-402mph (using Japanese fuel)

Climb Rate:
La-7: 4,500ft per minute
Ki.84: 3,600ft per minute

Range:
La-7: ~400 miles
Ki.84: ~1,050 miles

Armament:
La-7: Three B-20 20mm cannon with 150 rounds each
Ki.84: Two Ho-5 20mm cannon with 150 rounds each and two Ho-103 12.7mm machine guns with 350 rounds each

Ordinance:
La-7: Two 100kg bombs
Ki.84: Two 250kg bombs

Turn:
La-7: About like a P-51D
Ki.84: About like a Spitfire Mk IX

Both the Ki.84 and La-7 will accelerate very well.

The Japanese built 3,514 Ki.84s and it entered service before the P-51D did.  It is not rare enough, nor is it's performance high enough to warrant perking.  It does not have the performance of the Tempest or Spitfire Mk XIV, nor does it have the firepower that lead to the F4U-1C's over use.

The Ki.84 should not be a perk plane.

[Karnak]

GScholz,

All Japanese aircraft modeled in AH are modeled using Japanese fuel.

I was noting the Japanese fuel to clarify that the numbers were not the US post war tests using US fuel.

[J_A_B]

Regarding the Ki-84:

What Karnak speaks is the truth.  A Ki-84 added to AH would likely be modeled using Japanese data and hence would not be a perk plane (though it'd still be a very good fighter).  The N1K2 is a good example of a Japanese fighter in AH that is modeled to Japanese data, for which US-test flight data exists that is quite a lot better.    


LA7--

The reason the LA7 doesn't have much of a reputation outside AH is twofold.  

First of all, the war on the Eastern Front has largely been a footnote of history in US history books. (Much as the war in the Pacific is little more than a footnote in Soviet and Russian history books; no evil there just each country teaches what mattered more to them.)  

Second, the European air battles that "capture the imagination" of the public, the epic battles over Britain and Germany, were fought at 30,000 feet.   The LA7 is absolutely pitiful at that altitude.  The AH MA is not representative of most WW2 air combat conditions.

J_A_B

[Dowding]

"How could those Soviets build a decent plane?!!"

Pur-leaze.

[Urchin]

It'll be interesting when the Ki-84 gets introduced.  

As far as the La-7 goes, I think it is the best plane in the game right now.  I'd take one against a Tempest rather than fly the Tempest (performance is almost identical, La7 flat turns better but the Tiffie has a VERY slight edge in the vertical plane).  The only real weakness the La-7 has is the pilot.  Most La-7 pilots in the MA couldn't find their bellybutton with both hands and a candle, so even though their plane might do everything better than yours..  they don't know what to do.  Typically they'll overshoot and run, or if there are 2 of them they'll typically overshoot and die (then the last one left will run instead).  

As far as the 'best' unperked planes in the game go (for fighting, not Bore N Zoom)- although I don't even think the Spit and N1K make the list because they are gangbang victims for the most part.  I guess this is my list of best planes that are faster than all the Spits and N1K2s.  I also listed what I see as their primary weakness.

1.  La7 - Essentially no weaknesses.
2. Yak9U/ 109G-10 -  Low Firepower, no other weaknesses.
3.  P-51D-  Poor Acceleration, Mediocre Climb.  P-51Ds can flat turn a LOT better than people think they can, of all the planes listed above the P-51D out-turns them by a WIDE margin.
4.  Typhoon-  Poor Rollrate.

Thats really all I can think of.  For a list of 'fighters' the Dora doesn't even come close to making the list imo.  Crappy climbrate and turning kill it.  Has good firepower for a Bore N Zoom artist though.