Author Topic: Just a thought Concerning Suicide Attacks  (Read 984 times)

Offline Charon

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Just a thought Concerning Suicide Attacks
« Reply #30 on: January 07, 2003, 12:26:05 PM »
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A few simple Jabo runs to the bases launching these attackers and hitting there fuel is your answer.Hit there ammo.Look people.This is valid tactics.The augering in in the process is probebly 50\50 lack of skill /desire to get back up faster.Regardless,Hit em back.This crying about it isnt gonna do anything.If the rear line bases have short fuel or ammo then they wont be able to hit YOUR rear bases.


At which point, having faced some staight up opposition the side that seems to be coming out on the losing end also seems to quickly evaporate. So you are once again being gangbanged or you are the gangbanger, or if you're like me you try to fly a fast plane and feed on the edges or find a fight that has some equality of action for more than 1-2 sorties before it evaporates (usually the carrier is sunk) and you have to move on again. Sometimes you have to change sides to find these fights. As stated, I still find enough enjoyment here for it to be worth $15 a month, but for my interests the arena is not optimal right now.

It is a valid tactic DrDre. I just dont enjoy (my personal style of gameplay) getting gangbanged, or taking part in a gangbang. If these were fairly even numbered fights, that stayed even numbers for a while, they would be great. gangbanging was a realistic tactic in WW2, but then so was death, and WW2 was not a game but a fight for survival on both the personal and international levels. This is a game, however, and I like more of a level playing field. Not 1v1 dueling arena per se, but at least fairly even fights. Even 2 v 1 isn't so bad, but 5 v 1 or more....

Perhaps the mission theater will solve the problem. But how successful will it be? The current strat guys will likely experience an ego smack that goes with getting beat 1v1 by someone else. Many of the current A2A guys will likely find the structure to be too confining. I'm looking forward to it. If anything, you should be able to organize (at the very least) a regular mission night or two given the interst in scenarios.

Charon

Offline DrDea/Kvorkian

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Just a thought Concerning Suicide Attacks
« Reply #31 on: January 07, 2003, 12:50:45 PM »
I recall the AW days on AOL when porking the frontline bases sometimes was the only way to take a base.Basicly the same thing applies here.You hit the rear bases,and take the front ones.Thats textbook for the "Strat" players.I was never a strat player.I didnt mind taking bases,but I was limited in playing time so I wasnt like some of these Gernerals that live in there and plan there day around an 18 to 20 hour plan.Strat playing by definition requires you think in advance.The Furball crowd just wants to find a place where they can get maby 20 people combined dukeing it out between 2 bases.Unfortunatly as long as there is a score involved someone is ALWAYS gonna screw it up for the other people who in return are screwing it up for them.
 Group 1 battle cry.  "Hey why dont you furballers get over here and help us out.Your not "Team" players."
 Group 2 Battle cry.  Hey guys theres a GREAT furball between base  whatever and whatever.This is a blast!!
Group 3 battle cry. Well hell I'll supress that mess.
  So ya see,its never going to be the "Be all" for everyone.Ya just have to take what ya find.As far as the suicide eggers,I didnt know that untill I got the hang of Jabo I was suffering from suicidal tendecies.I guess experience='s prozac in here.:rolleyes:

Offline lazs2

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Just a thought Concerning Suicide Attacks
« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2003, 02:03:16 PM »
charon you get it..  

jakal... the ease of which even the lowest skilled, attention starved kamikazi can ruin gameplay is the problem.   It takes skill and effort to defend against the skilless... this seems somewhat lopsided don't you agree?

We had the same problem with fluffs.... the skilless would up in em to pork fields... either for their idea of "strat" and "winning the game" or simply because they felt people would pay attention to em if they caused a big enough impact.  

If they want the attention or the whatever it is they want... it doesn't matter... if they want to ruin gameplay then make em work for it.    I bet if they perked bombs then all of a sudden.... we would see suicide attacks cut in half or  more.
lazs

Offline Jackal1

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Just a thought Concerning Suicide Attacks
« Reply #33 on: January 07, 2003, 03:43:18 PM »
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Originally posted by lazs2
charon you get it..  

jakal... the ease of which even the lowest skilled, attention starved kamikazi can ruin gameplay is the problem.   It takes skill and effort to defend against the skilless... this seems somewhat lopsided don't you agree?

We had the same problem with fluffs.... the skilless would up in em to pork fields... either for their idea of "strat" and "winning the game" or simply because they felt people would pay attention to em if they caused a big enough impact.  

If they want the attention or the whatever it is they want... it doesn't matter... if they want to ruin gameplay then make em work for it.    I bet if they perked bombs then all of a sudden.... we would see suicide attacks cut in half or  more.
lazs
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Offline Jackal1

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Just a thought Concerning Suicide Attacks
« Reply #34 on: January 07, 2003, 04:13:12 PM »
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Originally posted by lazs2
charon you get it..  

jakal... the ease of which even the lowest skilled, attention starved kamikazi can ruin gameplay is the problem.   It takes skill and effort to defend against the skilless... this seems somewhat lopsided don't you agree?

We had the same problem with fluffs.... the skilless would up in em to pork fields... either for their idea of "strat" and "winning the game" or simply because they felt people would pay attention to em if they caused a big enough impact.  

If they want the attention or the whatever it is they want... it doesn't matter... if they want to ruin gameplay then make em work for it.    I bet if they perked bombs then all of a sudden.... we would see suicide attacks cut in half or  more.
lazs


  Hear that swooshing sound go over your head? That aint no jet . Everytime ya post you make you make it clearer what your prob is. You haven`t seen many SUICIDE attacks cause your too busy steering clear of bases that are being hit. :D  Truth is there is not that many suicides, it`s peeps attacking a base and getting killed by acks. lmao It takes skill and effort to defend against the skilless????????????? Now that`s worth framing. Yea it`s gonna take a little effort. That might rule you out. If their so damn skilless and your, "the master of skill" should be no prob for you. As for as ruining game play it`s not happening. You just can`t see that not everyone going to say" well man he don`t like us actualy playing the game for the purpose base capture and winning the map, so we got to conform to his narrow minded view that someone`s stole his Tonka toy. Not gonna happen. As for as perking the bombs you would never no the difference because your not defending your bases anyway. The people who enjoy base capture and strat runs would still do the same thing. Unless HT decides to turn this into pointless arcade game and takes away the base capture and object of the game your not gonna have a fully supplied field anywhere you want it to take light fighters from to play Roger Ramjet. Why don`t you just quit wasting your time on us skilless, timid  folks and go do your thing feeling secure in your superior knowledge and skill. What your complaining about is the players who use strategy to obtain an objective, as you call it effort.  
Avoid it at all cost, it`s not worht it.:D
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Offline MWHUN

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Just a thought Concerning Suicide Attacks
« Reply #35 on: January 07, 2003, 04:37:25 PM »
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Originally posted by Jackal1
What your complaining about is the players who use strategy to obtain an objective, as you call it effort.  
Avoid it at all cost, it`s not worht it.:D


 No he is rightly complaining about the skill-less dweebs that climbs to 20k then hurls their JABO into an airfield's fuel supply with little intent on living through it.  Then repeating it continuously.  That is not strategic game play... that is being a pork dweeb.:rolleyes:

And it IS very difficult to defend against waves and waves of fast moving suicide dweebs.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2003, 05:30:39 PM by MWHUN »

Offline GPreddy

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Just a thought Concerning Suicide Attacks
« Reply #36 on: January 07, 2003, 05:22:35 PM »
I dont care which team your on if you havent seen this you arent looking. I have flown with a thirty man mission only to see it quickly reduced to five guys because most of them didnt understand the problems involved in a steep approach. From the defense point of view I have watched a cloud of enemies reduced to nothing because they all attacked at a steep angle and dropped too low and fast so that their own bombs killed them. I have seen this at fields that have alreay been deacked so dont blame it on ack. The fact is that eighty percent of the players online are dweebs and dont understand the physics of flight and havent taken the time to learn the planes they are flying. There isnt a reward for living and so the incentive to learn how to properly execute the attack has been removed. Its a pity that these same dweebs dont understand that they could survive and do their egos and score and country too a much better service if they would just take the time to gain a little skill. Were this the case the inadequacies of the cv defenses would be brought even more to light.

Offline Jackal1

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Just a thought Concerning Suicide Attacks
« Reply #37 on: January 07, 2003, 05:39:11 PM »
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Originally posted by MWHUN
No he is rightly complaining about the skill-less dweebs that climbs to 20k then hurls their JABO into and airfield's fuel supply with little intent on living through it.  Then repeating it continuously.  That is not strategic game play... that is being a pork dweeb.:rolleyes:

And it IS very difficult to defend against waves and waves of fast moving suicide dweebs.


 If you can`t get waves and waves of defense planes up to alt you bet your sweet bippy it`s difficult to defend against.  Sounds to me like these skilless phantoms of the skies are succeding more often than not. Maybe it`s because you don`t  want to put the same effort and and advance planning  into it they did. After all their just skilless pork dweebs .:D  The waves and waves part is why it works. If you know their not gonna stop coming and you would rather complain about how skilless they are instead of puttin a little effort into climbing and defending, you better keep your bags packed cause you going to moving regularly while they take your bases. I mean after all were just Pork Dweebs that haven`t  got enough brains to quit while something is working. Maybe one day we will learn that it just aint right to keep hitting a field that no one wants to put any effort into defending. Then we can all be merry men and fly off into the sunset from the field of our choice to awe at the totaly immaculate and unmolested bases and tell each other tales of yore about the jousting days. Nawwwww no chance of me ever having that much intelligence, I`m too happy having a blast , doing what I enjoy in the GAME that I pay to fly in. Sad but true. Were not worthy. lmao Up to 2 pages and still using the same bait. Wish I had this much luck bass fishing.   dudes, enjoy the game.
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Offline MWHUN

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Just a thought Concerning Suicide Attacks
« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2003, 05:50:22 PM »
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Originally posted by Jackal1
 Maybe it`s because you don`t  want to put the same effort and and advance planning  into it they did.  



What color is the sky in your world?:rolleyes:

Offline Jackal1

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Just a thought Concerning Suicide Attacks
« Reply #39 on: January 07, 2003, 06:07:53 PM »
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Originally posted by MWHUN
What color is the sky in your world?:rolleyes:


 Color doen`t matter today. It`s been all bright and shiny.:rolleyes:
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Offline Grizzly

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Just a thought Concerning Suicide Attacks
« Reply #40 on: January 07, 2003, 06:57:09 PM »
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Originally posted by Jackal1
Then we can all be merry men and fly off into the sunset from the field of our choice to awe at the totaly immaculate and unmolested bases and tell each other tales of yore about the jousting days.


Flying enmass in P51 and Typhoons avoiding confrontation with the solitary intent of destroying a base via any means possible is not jousting.

Sure, it's a realistic tactic in a war, even the Kamakazi part, but war isn't fun like games are supposed to be. But certainly pork hoarding can be a game too. You can eliminate all fighters and resistance (since they are irrelevant anyway) and just have a base capture race. But how long will it take for this to get boring?

The problem is that a race to capture bases is the built in objective of AH. As long as this is the case, players will always use "the ends justify the means" approach and do anything to grab bases faster. Although leaving the game to the choice of the players won't stop base porking, porking won't be encouraged and maybe even ridiculed, as it should be because it ruins the fun of others.

There was a good reason Kesmai discouraged arena destruction in AW, although it did become prevelant in AW's latter years due to new management that knew nothing of the game... which greatly contributed to it's demise.

Offline Jackal1

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Just a thought Concerning Suicide Attacks
« Reply #41 on: January 07, 2003, 08:03:01 PM »
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Originally posted by Grizzly
Flying enmass in P51 and Typhoons avoiding confrontation with the solitary intent of destroying a base via any means possible is not jousting.

Sure, it's a realistic tactic in a war, even the Kamakazi part, but war isn't fun like games are supposed to be. But certainly pork hoarding can be a game too. You can eliminate all fighters and resistance (since they are irrelevant anyway) and just have a base capture race. But how long will it take for this to get boring?

The problem is that a race to capture bases is the built in objective of AH. As long as this is the case, players will always use "the ends justify the means" approach and do anything to grab bases faster. Although leaving the game to the choice of the players won't stop base porking, porking won't be encouraged and maybe even ridiculed, as it should be because it ruins the fun of others.

There was a good reason Kesmai discouraged arena destruction in AW, although it did become prevelant in AW's latter years due to new management that knew nothing of the game... which greatly contributed to it's demise.


Errrrrrr Ummmmmmmm yea. Your right, it`s not jousting, that`s  what I said but not mixed in with the avoiding any confrontation part. When you don`t have any defenders, there is no confrontation and that sucks. That`s the point I`m making. If all the people here that are stating how bad they want to engage the enemy in equal numbers would defend their bases it would be more enjoyable for everyone.  The only way you can eliminate all fighters and resistance by running base capture sorties is when  the supposedly itching for a fight pilots do not up and defend the base. Your certainly right about the race for base capture being built in to AH. That`s why the country that captures the most bases gets the   " ------ has won the war" message. If base porking ruins the game for some  it`s because you will not put the effort in defending your bases. If you are against porking, attacking and taking bases then evidently you just want to dogfight. It wouldn`t be hard to find a real air battle if you would  get in it defending your bases. If we ruin the fun of others then I have no idea what you want. Enemy hitting the base shouldn`t bother you because that contributes to the evil "object of the game. If you want to fight , them big dar bars headed that way should realy make your day. Plenty of fighting there. If it comes down to just a base capture race it would mean we are playing the game for the objective. I don`t know how long it will take you guys that want to fight so bad to get bored. Maybe when you get that bored you will up a field and join the fun, then everyone would have what they want.

  The new management certainly had knowledge of the game in AW. Look who they were. :} EA bought the game out for the sole purpose of eliminating it, just as they have a number of their competitors.
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Offline Grizzly

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Just a thought Concerning Suicide Attacks
« Reply #42 on: January 07, 2003, 11:24:35 PM »
I don't disagree with what you say, Jackal, it's just the extent and circumstances found in AH.

I spend almost all my time defending bases... it's what I do. Having bases to fight over is great and adds purpose to the fighting. Of course, drop and auger types are there too, and they aren't as much fun since they don't live long enough to kill.

My complaint, and I think that of others, is the hoards that avoid confrontation to attack bases. Like they form into massive groups to completely overpower and run over any opposition there may be. Or they taget bases that are not defended... you can't defend them all. And many auger after dropping to make another trip quicker.

If, as you say, these players believe that opposition is fun, why do they go to such great lengths to avoid competition or pound what little there is into the dirt? I'm not going to waste my game time futily trying to hold off these hoards, so I and others go elsewhere. If they really enjoy a fight, they shouldn't try to over run and circumvent the opposition as they do.

I really couldn't care less if a massive force of porkers destroy unused bases in a vacant corner of the arena far far away. But when they choose to run through an area I'm having fun in, they bug me. Also, eventually the number of bases available become so few that alternative types of game play can not avoid intruding on each other. the arena is ruined and the fun is over, except of course for the racing base grabbing arena porkers.

It's all good, but this type of game play is just too disruptive to others. It could be restricted to a portion of the arena if the players had consideration for others, but that's not possible when the objective of arena destruction is built into AH.

Offline lazs2

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Just a thought Concerning Suicide Attacks
« Reply #43 on: January 08, 2003, 08:11:54 AM »
jakal... Ok... now I get it... u are just pretending to be infantile and stupid in order to show us how foolish we are.   or... perhaps you have an even higher purpose?

boy do I feel silly now..
lazs

Offline Charon

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Just a thought Concerning Suicide Attacks
« Reply #44 on: January 08, 2003, 09:43:49 AM »
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The only way you can eliminate all fighters and resistance by running base capture sorties is when the supposedly itching for a fight pilots do not up and defend the base.


I up in base defense until I can no longer get gear up because of the conga line waiting to vulch at D1 out or so. In fact, base defense is what I look for when I first pull up the map. If you look at my last tour's stats, about every Spit V sortie you see there was red overhead when I turned over the engine. Though the LA7 is fast becoming the base defender of choice since it sometimes gives you a chance to close to shooting range.

How often, though, do the Strat "game winners" go on the defensive, or stick around if there is solid defense? You guys have all the big generals and organization. How often do you bring your 30 plane hord face to face with the other teams 30 plane hord? How often do you, Jackal? How many times is the milkrun, with perhaps a handful of vulch opportunities, just too appealing compared to taking 1-2 hours to assault a heavily defended base?

I also wonder if the strat guys play any real 1v1 strategy games like Civ-play the world, or H2H wargames, or online chess? I mean, those are real strategy/tactical games where it's your personal military expertise vs your opponent, milkrunning is not an option, and to gang up you usually have to whip the enemy first. Of course, if you lose it can be even worse on the ego than losing a dogfight. You think you're Rommel and some 12-year-old hands you your ass.

What's amazes me, as someone who actually likes strategy/tactical games and plays them regularly, is that the weakest aspect of this game, the strategy, is the main focus of the game to many. And, that the common tactics don't seem to incorporate any real depth of strategy (the occasional HQ attack being a weak exception, or deciding where to park a CV). Don't get me wrong, AH is far more progressive than most similar games, with real long term potential to add tactical and strategic depth. Trains, truck convoys, etc. But, the path of least resistance seems mighty compelling.

Few people seem to play with depth because, frankly, there's no need. Why pork a refinery if you can just jabo the fuel at a few close fields, eliminate the opportunity to resist from those who would make the effort, grab a few vulches, drop some goons and move on. It's almost a tic-tac-toe route to victory. Mob base A while your opponents Mob bases B and C, then count up the totals at the end. I lost interest in Tic-Tac-Toe when I was 6.

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If you know their not gonna stop coming and you would rather complain about how skilless they are instead of puttin a little effort into climbing and defending, you better keep your bags packed cause you going to moving regularly while they take your bases.


I remember having to launch from three sectors away and fly for 30 mins in AW during the big pork, because all the nearby fuel was down, just to get in the action. It is not nearly that bad here, but I don't want it to get that way either.

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My complaint, and I think that of others, is the hoards that avoid confrontation to attack bases. Like they form into massive groups to completely overpower and run over any opposition there may be. Or they taget bases that are not defended... you can't defend them all. And many auger after dropping to make another trip quicker.

If, as you say, these players believe that opposition is fun, why do they go to such great lengths to avoid competition or pound what little there is into the dirt? I'm not going to waste my game time futily trying to hold off these hoards, so I and others go elsewhere. If they really enjoy a fight, they shouldn't try to over run and circumvent the opposition as they do.

Grizzly


My feelings exactly. I don't want one big DA for the MA. Strat is necessiary, and has the potential to be a lot of fun for me personally if the depth of the strategy/tactics advances. I generally love scenarios. BoB was Awesome, too bad I can't really make Neimen. Pork warrior, though, has no personal appeal at any level.

Charon
« Last Edit: January 08, 2003, 09:50:23 AM by Charon »