to frenchy and others who think b17 guns better than real life...

[fats]

It is quite meaningless wether a single fighter can wipe out 3 bomber formation in AH on one pass or not. What matters is how many hits the bombers or fighter sustained on critical systems before going down.

I recall that Anton Hackl said that they expected 2% shooting accuracy for the avg. ( or was it new? ) pilot in '44. Meaning they expected 2 ammo loads from regular Fw 190A per bomber going down. I am quite certain people are putting 50% and over hit rates on bombers with a good pass in AH. I equally expect the AH gunners to be shooting with far more accuracy than what the gunners did in real life.

Would it be possible to find some results from gunnery practice done by the 8th AF gunners?

High accuracy, if it indeed happens, would suggest ability to concentrate fire on single location making it even more lethal than 2% spraying which one could assume to be scattered all over the target.

AH has totally different set of parameters for bomber survivability than what WWII had. Get over it and device tactics that suite the environment at hand which is what they did in WWII.


// fats

[crabofix]

I wonder why the Germans changed their tactics, using HO, frontal attacks on the B17 formations? If bombers where so easy preys, how come they used timed fragment bombs/rockets to break the formations up, to isolate single bombers? Why did they build FW 190 into "flying tanks", raming the bombers?

The Firepower in most German fighters where fearsome, just because their most important task was: To bring a bomber down in one single attack (because that was more or less all they could do, One attack and then bail).

So the range is to long, to effective? D-max on a .50 is long, 4700 meters. As long as it is in the air, no matter what speed it has, it could still do damage to you, because you are flying into it.



He is not shooting with a submachinegun from the hip. He is shooting from a gun, placed in a recoilabsorbing mount, using tracers.
And you are doing only , maybe 120-200 mph, to the gunner on the bomber, if you´re crawling up from the six view.  And He is not alone!

The 50 cal. is a neat gun, still being used by army/fleets all over the world. If its not "leathal" or "effective", how come they´re still in use? What happend to all the "Great" german guns?

Answer: They where not "effective" enough.

(The Germans made good guns, but the guns didnt fullfill their tactical needs. Some of them are used today, but not in their wwII form. The .50 is about the same as it was 75 years ago).
 
I say that the Guns are modeled good on the buffs.

Crabofix

[maxtor]

"While the B-17 was a tough bird, it had design errors that contributed to the losses. The worst were the naked fuel primer lines that ran from the main fuel tank to the manual primer beside the copilots seat and back to the intake manifold for each engine. The fuel booster pumps were always on with 60 psi pressure in the lines, and one bullet or piece of flak would sever a line. This would result in spraying high octane fuel on a red hot supercharger. Proper design would have a bullet resistant line about six inches long from the tank to the intake manifold controlled by an electric valve operated by a switch on the console. The second worst design were the oil tanks. There was one oil tank for each engine containing thirty- two gallons of 50 weight oil. If this tank got a hole in it all 32 gallons of oil would drain out, and there was no oil for feathering. This happened to us twice, and we were not aware of any oil leak until the oil pressure dropped to zero and the cylinder head temperature rose to the top of the gauge. Once the whole engine fell off (wonderful feeling- we had already sounded the bail-out alarm and left our seats). The second time the propeller broke the gears, spun at a very very high speed, then fell off going downward instead of at me (wonderful feeling). This could have been corrected by a separate oil tank for feathering or a standpipe in the tank for engine oil with the bottom fitting for feathering."

WWII STORY: THIS IS IT !
PART- III By:Bill Goodman

[GScholz]

Crabofix, you are missing the essential truth. The German fighters were designed to take out a bomber (or cripple one) in a single pass not because it could only survive one pass, but because they would only get one or two passes before RTB for fuel. The B-17 formations were high and fast, it took considerable time and fuel for the LW to form their formations and climb to the intercept. One engagement, and then run home.

The .50 has indeed impressive ballistic properties, but have you actually fired one? It is very hard to hit a moving vehicle at more than 500 yards from a stationary platform like a tripod, to say nothing of a vibrating moving airplane. Also consider the aiming devices used; most of the B-17 gunners had only crude iron sights, but the German fighters had excellent optical sights. Also the different sizes of targets; a B-17 is a big target, LW fighters were small targets.

The drastic LW measures you describe were not implemented until after the bombers got sufficient escort. When the P-51 entered the war in an escort role, LW tactics like creeping up the bombers six became suicidal.

Almost every post war auto cannon is either a direct development of the German weapons, or in some way influenced by them. Especially by the Mauser MG-213 revolver cannon which would strongly influence the development of the M61 and GAU-8 gatling cannons, and most British and French post war A/C cannons too. A modernized MG-151 is still in production in South-Africa. Same with machineguns like the MG-3, M60, MAG-MG and PKMG. They are all developments of the MG42.

By the late '80s the Browning M2HB was to be replaced in the US inventory with a 20mm cannon, however new development in ammunition by Raufoss Ammunisjonsfabrikk, namely the MP1 and MP2 multi purpose ammo (AP, HE, incendiary) provided a further use of the M2HB in US service. There is no denying the Browning M2 is a good weapon, however more than just ballistic properties has to be considered to determine if its use was effective.

[Kelly[KGN]]

Hi,

another reason for the need of "one pass - one kill" was not only the gunners in a B17, it was the huge number of gunners in all B17s.
I think nobody argues about the result of a FW190 vs. a single B17.
Historical it was a little different, groups of 10-30 FWs entering a tight box with 100s of gunners they have to pass...ouch. It was much spraying, but still very deadly.

Another point is, that most of the german pilots were pretty inexperienced...but even Galland feared to fly into a box.

[vorticon]

hmm...the rpoblem is 8 well orginized flyers attacking the 17's correctly COULD actually win with few losses as long as they do it RIGHT

[Puck]

I've been prying data about bomber guns from my dad, who has been there and done that.  I even made him dig out his old photos when I was visiting over Christmas.

Back in his day there were several bogys, generally, and every gunner was watching his own piece of space.  In my time (AH) there is rarely more than one engageable target at a time, and EVERY gunner with a clear field of fire is shooting at that one target.

Just for fun try killing a maneuvering bandit (they didn't slowly crawl up your six back then) with a SINGLE gun position and see how well you do.

Dad sat in the nose; he had tenths of a second to line up a shot with the closure rates from a head on pass.  The ball turret and top turret rarely, if ever, tracked the same target.  Also consider you didn't shoot at an aircraft that was moving away (or at least you weren't supposed to).  

They also didn't have icons in WWII.  You judged distance by the number of rads the wingspan took, and that was done with your sight.  Lead depended on range and closure, and those were wagged from the ring site and experience.

Just on a side note, in the nose turret of the B24 there was a piece of bullet proof glass.  They told my dad if the glass gets too shattered you just pull a couple pins and slide it out of the way...

...yeah, RIGHT!

[hazed-]

read 'combat crew' by john comer.

read 'i flew for the fuhrer' heinz knoke


you then have a book by an american bomber gunner (top gunner/engineer) nd the story from the other side Ie a german pilot who attacked the bombers in a 109G.

reading some of the nonsense in here I cant even be bothered to reply.Its plainly obvious people dont want to accept what anyone else is saying even though most have a ring of truth.

Al that most of you have done is taken one side of the stories and accepted them as concrete evidence.You need to read all sdes of the story andaccept somwhere between the two is the truth.

B17s were capable of shooting down fighters but it wasnt as easy as it is in AH.Its absolute nonsense to think that we have ANY idea what it must be like or how hard it was to do.Its absolutely hilarious hearing people in here claim we are better shots than the real gunners because we've had more practice shooting.WE HAVE HAD NO PRACTICE.We are playing a F**&&in' computer game which isnt anything like REAL.

[MadBirdCZ]

Hazed's post - seconded

[fats]

--- Hazed: ---
We are playing a F**&&in' computer game which isnt anything like REAL.
--- end ---

Look Captain Obvious made his entrance.


// fats

[Hammy]

WTG Hazed hehehehehe  forever the realist  

[GPreddy]

Hazed I agree with you on the gunnery issue for 98% of the dweebs in this game. Its the other 2% that make the difference.

[crabofix]

Originally posted by GScholz


The .50 has indeed impressive ballistic properties, but have you actually fired one?

Yes I am the Proud Owner of one: Springfield made 1943 cal.50 M2. Fully Working and yes I have fired it with Norwegian made Ammunition. (11,71 sek per round (about 1.10$). Expensive but fun).
Yes It is hard to hit targets when its mounted on the tripoid. But it is because theres nothing that takes up the recoil, that is pretty heavy.
I have also fired other ones from AA stands in the Strb 90, and thats a totaly diffrent story: Pretty easy to shoot and to hit.

I have been collecting Machineguns since 1992.

Crabofix

[Wotan]

I really dont know the point of this thread is. But bombers are easy kills in ah but thats how it was in rl. Some body posted test of a b24 on the ground that showed bomber gunner dispersion at 600 to be 20+ feet for the tail gunner alone. Waist gunner it was much higher. Bombers in AH rarely have escort. In The Big Week Scenario in frame 1 the bombers got spread out and the escorts couldnt help them (in my area anyway). My wing and at 28k hunted 6 b17s flying alone trying to egress. They all died. Later frames they got their toejam together and flew tighter formation. We had to keep falling back while our Light fighters stripped away the escort. Once that happened we again had a field day.

But thats not to say bombers gunners in ah dont hit at longer ranges. They do they are more accurrate at range then what one gets from reading accounts. But the gunner "jump" bomber "jump" to change positions can be exploited. You force the guy to keep jumping positions. He cant cant track you very well and he cant hold his sight on you long enough to get a burst out.

Most had little experience in ah bombers. In tod however a well formed box of b17s flown by experienced pilots fought off wave after wave of fighters. Including several 262s.

In the main your little flight of 3 bombers aint gonna get far. However the amount of mistakes that can be made by the attacker are far less then in rl.

Heres some about the Sturmgruppen.

On the 27 September the Sturmgruppen were to be the executioners. The 8th Air Force sent  its three Bomb Divisions to attack targets in West and central Germany . 250 B-24 Liberators of the 2nd Bomb Division were to attack the Henschel works in Kassel . Tragedy was to strike the 37 aircraft of the 445th Bomb Group who became detached from the main formation as a result of navigational error. Without fighter cover the bombers had jettisoned their cargos over countryside near Eisenach 45 miles southwest of Kassel and turned for home. It was at this moment that the 445th was hit by wave after wave of Focke Wulf 190 Sturmböcke from the three Sturmgruppen . The IV.Sturm/JG 3 came in the first wave under Hptm Wilhelm Moritz, while II.Sturm/JG 4 led in the air by Oblt Othmar Zehart came in the second wave followed closely by a 3rd wave, II.Sturm/JG 300 led by Major Alfred Lindenberger. Some 120 Sturm aircraft in a giant Gefechtsverband or battle formation escorted by Bf 109 fighters of I./JG 300 who provided top cover !!

".. it was very unusual to see such a large formation of enemy bombers without fighter escort. Without  the P-51s the bombers were virtually sitting ducks..diese dicken autos waren so verwundbar...virtually every pilot in the Gruppe shot one down

  Schröder had a number of victories over P-51 Mustangs before the events of the 27 September 1944, the so-called 'Catastrophe at Kassel', the decimation of the 37 B-24 Liberators of the 445th BG, the highest one day loss of any bombardment group in the 8th Air Force. Flying in the third wave of attacking Sturm machines he shot down two 445th BG B-24 Liberators. These were his only Viermot victories. The following is extracted from his combat report, parts of which are reproduced in Bill Dewey's 'Kassel mission Reports' along with Schröder's assessment of the aerial battle.

"……In a short time, we saw a large group of B-24 Liberator bombers, at our altitude, like a swarm of mosquitoes, flying right in front of us, going in the same direction. The silhouettes very soon became bigger and bigger because of our great speed. Suddenly, several of these big ships began to burn and to plunge down with fire and smoke - even before we fired a single shot. A (Sturm) unit flying ahead of us had begun the attack. Immediately, the sky was full of parachutes and wreckage, and we were flying right into it. Even before I had covered the remaining distance to my bomber, it already was in flames as a result of my six guns. Both left engines... were burning. The airplane turned on its side and plunged. Also, the neighbouring machine was already smoking from a previous attack. I only needed to change aim to shoot again. Then this one showed bright flames…. I was so surprised and fascinated that I flew alongside my victim and stared at the metre-high flames that were pouring out of this Liberator, all the way back, beyond the elevator. Then this great machine clumsily laid itself over on its back and went down....."  


"...  In view of this surprising success, I naturally wanted to know precisely where my two opponents would fall. This was necessary because a double shoot-down of two four-engine bombers (they were my only ones) was for us in 1944 something exceptional. Therefore, I circled the crashing wreckage of my two adversaries in large, downward-running spirals. But my attention was hindered in a most horrible way, because the entire sky was filled with fliers in parachutes, and small and large chunks of airplane debris, which suddenly appeared in front of my wind-shield at my high diving speed of 600 to 700 kph. I truly had to close my eyes because I believed I would almost certainly hit something…"

"...This mission was carried out in the classic Sturm battle group with the other Sturmgruppen. Hptm Wilhelm Moritz was at the head of our Angriffskeil or arrowhead formation. As leader of 15 Staffel I attacked an element of B-24 Liberators. Like Oschersleben on the 7th July our tactics were the same. Shots into the fuselage and rear gunner area to nullify the bombers return fire  and then to set the wing root area near the engines on fire with our cannon... "

Romm was to record his 81st to 83rd victories as 3 B-24s went down in flames to his attacks. Horst Haase scored his 55th, Wilhelm Moritz his 43rd, Willi Maximowitx his 12th and Siegfried Müller his 9th victory . Gerhard Vivroux shot down a 361st FG Mustang  for his 11th victory when the American fighter escort arrived on the scene .  It was only the arrival of the 361st that saved the 445th from total destruction. The scenes of chaos, death and destruction can barely be imagined as some 37 bombers went down in a very small area .

Allied escorts arrived at the end of the engagement. First p51s and then p38s. 123 Americans and 19 Germans who lost their lives in this epic battle. Bill Deweys planes was one that made it but he said his "b24 was like Swiss cheeese" as it had been shot up so bad. His tail ganner was knocked out the cut a fire.

Only 4 of the doomed bombers in the formation made it home.

Bill Dewey: The P-51s came in responding to our original cries for help. But as we were heading out of the battle area with the seven planes, we saw these planes coming at us and they were P-38s. We thought we’d had it. We thought we got more fighters. So the 38’s did appear.

The Germans put up 120 planes. Bill Dewey said it looked like 300. His b24 claims 3 kills alone and even claims 1 fw 190 exploded. The Germans lost 23 planes most coming at the hands of the ecorts that arrived.

On the 7 July mission........., Gruppen of JG 300  enjoyed not inconsiderable successes claiming some 28 Ab- und Herausschüsse  and a further six US fighters and with this success fresh impetus was given to the fraught question of home air defenceThe carnage wrought on the USAAF bomber formations on 7 July 1944 would be repeated at intervals through the summer as massed Gefechtsverbände could now be formed. The first successful mission for II./JG 300 as a fully fledged Sturmgruppe, flown in a massed Gefechtsverband with IV./JG 3, was on the 15th August. II./JG 300 claimed nine Ab- und Herausschüsse without loss. According to Rodeike one of the first Sturmbock losses from II./JG 300 occurred on the 26th July 1944, Ofhr Martin Köhler  of 4. Staffel being shot down in Fw 190 A-8/R2 WNr 680179 'weisse 12'.

[Kweassa]

Incidentally, what happened to the "12 LW pilots" ?

 ...

 It's quite amazing to find out 10 of those rare people live in one city. Where does Nod live? In Berlin?