Author Topic: The Atomic bomb...why we used it.. (Read 11366 times)

Toad · « **Reply #120 on:** January 10, 2003, 04:26:39 PM »

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In 1989, with the collapse of Soviet Power, Gorbachev finally admitted that the Soviet NKVD had executed the Poles, and confirmed two other burial sites similar to the site at Katyn. Stalin's order of March 1940 to execute by shooting some 25,700 Poles, including those found at the three sites, was also disclosed with the collapse of Soviet Power. This particular second world war slaughter of Poles is often referred to as the "Katyn Massacre" or the "Katyn Forest Massacre".

Like I said, just about everyone in the world not living in your country.... and probably most of those living in your country... know and accept the truth.

You stand as a monument to the Soviet past.

....... but you are entertaining, I'll give you that.

Leslie · « **Reply #121 on:** January 10, 2003, 09:15:12 PM »

In the USA during WWII, the Battle of the Bulge was of very great concern to the average American. Many felt if we lost that battle, we would lose the war with Germany. U-boats routinely patrolled within a mile of the (Atlantic) Florida beach. The coast was littered with sunken ships, some of them visible...sinking 300 yards off the beach. People were very worried about this situation.

I have a hard time with the Dresden "accusation" being leveled at the United States and Great Britain. I cannot speak for Europeans, because they live there and I don't, and possibly see it differently than I do. However, I will not abide an American citizen using Dresden to put down the US and UK. Typically, imho those (American citizens) who attempt this, are college professors, safe and smug in their ivory tower.

As terrible as the bombing of Dresden was, I have to ask, what purpose is gained by denigrating the valiant bomber crews who went and did it? It is absolutely reprehensible to call airplane bombing "murder." It was war.

Les

Hangtime · « **Reply #122 on:** January 11, 2003, 12:06:55 AM »

Grettings Comrade Boroda!

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I don't think that an average American, fed by state and corporate propaganda, is responsible for all acts of agression and mass murder committed by US regime in past 50 years.

How quaint. I'm pardoned for my sins in uniform by a commie sypathiser. Thanks, but yer many years too late.. Jane Fonda already did that for us.

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I have told many times that "commissar" is no more then a joke. I only organize parties and meetings and make glintwein

LOL! Whotta tool! You mean you enjoy playing the drunken commie buffoon for your russian mafia socialite pinhead pals.

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I was born in 1972, was a memner of Comsomol until it was disbanded in 1989 when I was in college. I grew up in Soviet times. Till I was 15 I believed all Communist ideology, then, till I was maybe 22 I believed in Western "democratic" values, now I just want to be left alone and feel great disappointment with any ideology that I met.

I was playing marco polo with the little people in the land of bad things before you were born... and despite that eyeopening experience, I'd already figured out that your amazinhunks were worse than my amazinhunks without any assistance from the ideological REMF's that populated the place. Possibly, since I never had to suffer with your internal grief and torment from hopping over to the other side of the fence ideologicly; my less than sympathetic reaction to your being cast adrift in your own sea of self pity could be considered reasonable.

Or not.

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I am sick of Western propaganda, especially it's view on Soviet Union, that is based on works of dr. Goebbels, so when I see two different views on one event - I choose Soviet one, if it doesn't contradict with common sence.

ROFL! I repeat... Whotta TOOL!

I swear, for a guy that bemoans the spin doctors of the west; you sure got a fast hand on that commie propaganda record player. Common sense??? Your commentary; while common for the soviet politeriat, displays a truly grandioise lack of sense.

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The Dresden bombing is a very difficult thing to judge about. .

Judge?? "Judge".. WTF? Whats to 'Judge' about Dresden?? It was a war. The city got scrubbed.. much like London in 1940, Cologne, Hamburg, Berlin, Tokyo, Yokohama, Nagasaki and Hiroshima a little later on. Makes not a whit of diffrence what device was used to render them so... it was 'total' war. We won.. the Axis lost.

I'd rather judge your precious Soviet Government.. the one that was in FACT a Regime... the one that murdered millions of ukranians, white russinins, uzbecks, tartars, poles, slavs; etc.. the soviet government that finally collapsed on the economic rubble of it's morally and financialy bankrupt ideology of hate and disinformation. Try this litmus test of ideologly... if the American Government were to collapse tomorrow, how many stories about the slaughter of millions of our own citizens, bulldozed into mass graves will emerge?

Wake up and smell the Samavar, Boroda. Your selfless defense of a bunch of murdering toejamhead commies with bones stashed in their closets ain't gonna win yah any sympathy points here in the west.

BTW.. hows the weather in Moscow this winter?.. we're taking a pounding up here in the Eastern US. It's kinda what I expect Sibera looks like... except for the abundance of teeth, clothes, jobs, food, fuel, electricity and decadent recreational drugs that is...

Toad · « **Reply #123 on:** January 11, 2003, 06:13:25 AM »

Hang's BACK!

Dowding · « **Reply #124 on:** January 11, 2003, 06:54:25 AM »

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BTW.. hows the weather in Moscow this winter?.. we're taking a pounding up here in the Eastern US. It's kinda what I expect Sibera looks like... except for the abundance of teeth, clothes, jobs, food, fuel, electricity and decadent recreational drugs that is...

A bit harsh. My visit to Russia in 1990 as a kid is probably one of the most influencial experiences of my life to date (the others were a lot closer to home

). The Russians are a great people and deserve all the help we can give them to become a modern democratic society.

Masherbrum · « **Reply #125 on:** January 11, 2003, 07:11:03 AM »

So I could spend time with my granfather (25years). The same reason for at least 2-3million grandfathers, etc.

Karaya2

Thrawn · « **Reply #126 on:** January 11, 2003, 09:10:24 AM »

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Originally posted by Yeager
Our government is of the people, for the people. As such, the people are responsible. Trust me on this one, okay

Whew! And I thought it was about special interest groups, lobbiest and big business.

lazs2 · « **Reply #127 on:** January 11, 2003, 10:40:31 AM »

thrawn... that's because your.... well.... Canadian.
lazs

Hangtime · « **Reply #128 on:** January 11, 2003, 11:18:22 AM »

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The Russians are a great people and deserve all the help we can give them to become a modern democratic society.

Last time I checked, we were the largest single contributor in just that endeavor. Boroda, on the other hand, deserves the pencil whippin.

Pongo · « **Reply #129 on:** January 11, 2003, 11:20:08 AM »

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Originally posted by Leslie
In the USA during WWII, the Battle of the Bulge was of very great concern to the average American. Many felt if we lost that battle, we would lose the war with Germany. U-boats routinely patrolled within a mile of the (Atlantic) Florida beach. The coast was littered with sunken ships, some of them visible...sinking 300 yards off the beach. People were very worried about this situation.

I have a hard time with the Dresden "accusation" being leveled at the United States and Great Britain. I cannot speak for Europeans, because they live there and I don't, and possibly see it differently than I do. However, I will not abide an American citizen using Dresden to put down the US and UK. Typically, imho those (American citizens) who attempt this, are college professors, safe and smug in their ivory tower.

As terrible as the bombing of Dresden was, I have to ask, what purpose is gained by denigrating the valiant bomber crews who went and did it? It is absolutely reprehensible to call airplane bombing "murder." It was war.

Les

If they had walked through dresden with entreching tools and beaten 50-60 000 people to death would it be clearer to you.
There is morally no difference.

Hangtime · « **Reply #130 on:** January 11, 2003, 06:53:19 PM »

this is absurd! Nothin in the course of all human history points to a change in attitude between nations involved in total war.. a nation will use whatever comes to hand to win.. just as you would be expected to do when fighting for your own life. Had the Japanese had the bomb and not us, do you think they would have hesitated a moment to use it? Or Hitler? Or Mussolini? Or Stalin?

Matters not a bit if man uses a stone axe or an a-bomb to destroy the inhabitants of a city.. war is war.

Bomber Harris or Patton or Bull Halsey or Curtis Lemay as well as any number of other generals all held similar beliefs.. the only beliefs possible under the circumstances.. the only good enemy is a dead enemy. Attacking civilians? no such thing as a 'civilian' in their minds.

In total war, 'Total Destruction' of the enemys war-fighting capability precludes deciding that 'civilians' are untouchable.. 'civilians' staff war plants, give succor and medical aid to their soldiers, provide and transport his food, create the infrastructure upon which the soldiers government provides the means for his warfighting ability.

The wife working in the war plant back home is his reason for fighting in the first place. Put the civilian on the target list, you undermine and weaken the enemys ability and will to fight. History has proven these Generals right.

Thats what it means in this world to be involved in a 'total war'. You are likely to be 'totally' anniliated. Which is why no nation on this planet that is in possesion of nuclear weapons has been succesfuly threatened with 'total war' since the end of WWII.

Again.. the flash over hiroshima sent the message..

"World Peace...

..or ELSE."

Judge the Generals that ordered Dresden, Hamburg, Cologne, Berlin or London destroyed 'Murderers'? Not unless you can hang the same monicker on Rosie The Riveter.. she didn't build B-17's and B-29's for the St Pats day parade, pal. Every freakin one of 'em knew what was going into those planes and what they'd be used for. When VE and VJ day rolled around the crying in the streets was not for german or japanese civilians.

Pongo · « **Reply #131 on:** January 11, 2003, 11:41:13 PM »

Its interesting to imagine the RAF having nukes in 1943.
How many german cities would they have had to nuke befor the germans packed it in.
I dont know. But I am certain Bomber Harris would have nuked as many as it took.

SaburoS · « **Reply #132 on:** January 12, 2003, 04:47:34 AM »

It's interesting but change any of the major things in our history (Dresden, Holocaust, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Bataan Death March, etc.) and those of us conceived after the war probably wouldn't be here (that unique one and only sperm and one egg that makes us happens only once and during that exact time). Like it or not, what happens in history molds our future. All we can hope is to learn from our past and not repeat our mistakes.

Ping · « **Reply #133 on:** January 12, 2003, 09:17:06 AM »

Toad..nice replies:

The US is trying to diffuse the situation between India and Pakistan, granted. But the issue still remains.
Its the double standards that Helps cause discord amongst those looking in.
You are right...Israel is another issue for another thread.
If the US government wants to go after any Nation that Harbours terrorists and endanger World Peace, they cant allow their friends the right to do so.
That is My main point. By allowing Double standards, The Muslim World is going to resist, Or, side and fight with its own.
GB's Gov is stating that Iraq has violated or ignored x # of UN resolutions. Well? So has its allies.
I cannot help but think that GB's Gov policies, as regards Iraq, Have nothing to do with WMD. This simply seems to be the desire for a regime change to one friendly to the US.

If the Inspectors find WMD....fine waste the government, and then do the same to the allies that show the same disposition.

Pongo · « **Reply #134 on:** February 04, 2003, 09:23:55 AM »

Just finished "Downfall The fall of the Japanese Empire" By Richard Frank.
Excellent book about this exact topic that all interested parties could at least read for the exaustive study of the Diplomatic and military situation in mid 1945.