Author Topic: The Atomic bomb...why we used it.. (Read 10100 times)

ET · « **Reply #30 on:** January 08, 2003, 07:36:20 AM »

The U.S. was already taking out Japanese cities by use of incendiary bombing. This caused huge fire storms that killed civilians by the tens of thousands. The controversy over the A-bomb seems to be that we could do the same thing with a single bomb instead of five thousand or so. We were going to destroy their cities anyway.

The Russian's did not declare war on Japan until after the first A-bomb dropped. They saw the power and knew we would win the war. If they had participated in the invasion of Japan they would have demanded control of half of Japan, such as happened in Europe. There might have been another Iron Curtain in Japan. The Japanese surrender after the second bomb kept the Russians from gaining a large footprint in Japan. The four island's they did occupy, the Kurile Islands was still in their control long after Japan became a economic power and is still in their control 57 years later. Japan and Russia never signed a peace treaty because of these island's

Ripsnort · « **Reply #31 on:** January 08, 2003, 07:39:01 AM »

Quote

Daff: "(But wasnt there a better target available? Military installations in Hiroshima were minor)"

Daff, from what I've read over the years, it seems consistent that in Hiroshima, that over 80% of the "households" had small businesses that manufactured some sort of parts for weapons of war. This was common in the Japanese culture of manufacturing at the time. Also consider the major port of Hiroshima (Wasn't the Yamoto stationed there for awhile?)

Curval · « **Reply #32 on:** January 08, 2003, 07:44:42 AM »

Stats

Here are the actual figures.

My estimates were low...very low. But I still stick by what I said.

Eagler · « **Reply #33 on:** January 08, 2003, 08:01:03 AM »

was thinking about something along these lines the other night while watching the "Hunters of the Sky" tape which dealth with the war in the Pacific and the Kamakizes.

I was thinking of the comparison of those suicide pilots to the terrorists, how they both are willing to die for their cause and how one fights that mindset.

It took two atomic bombs in 1945 for Japan to see the light ... was wondering how many nuclear bombs would it take for the mid east radicals to get the point...

Daff · « **Reply #34 on:** January 08, 2003, 08:04:54 AM »

Rip, I've never heard the household number before..most people were though 'drafted' to work in the factories, but by the time of the bombing, there was virtually no production of any kind in Hiroshima, due to lack of resources. The port and shipyards were empty for the same reasons and there was only a skeleton garrison left.
Curval, yups..the site I got the Nagasaki numbers from most have mixed them up with the Hiroshima ones.

Were was the proposed invasion going to take place?..Southern Kyushu?...wouldnt it have made more sense to target military installations there?.

Daff

Ripsnort · « **Reply #35 on:** January 08, 2003, 08:22:50 AM »

Daff, I found this:

Quote

When the Committee convened to select cities for atomic attack in May, it included only those cities which not only were still largely intact but which were also "likely to be unattacked by next August"--and, further, "which the Air Forces would be willing to reserve for our use unless unforeseen circumstances arise." At the June 1, 1945 meeting of the Interim Committee:
Mr. Byrnes recommended, and the Committee agreed, that the Secretary of War should be advised that, while recognizing that the final selection of the target was essentially a military decision, the present view of the Committee was that the bomb should be used against Japan as soon as possible; that it be used on a war plant surrounded by workers' homes; and that it be used without prior warning.
The Target Committee also recommended on May 31, 1945, "that we should seek to make a profound psychological impression on as many of the inhabitants as possible." The goal was essentially to show that the bomb could destroy a whole city.

It did state that the major industrial areas on the fringe of the city were relatively untouched.

StSanta · « **Reply #36 on:** January 08, 2003, 08:29:27 AM »

Nice post hazed. If I am allowed, i'll interject soem RealPolitik also.

While it seems like a deed done to save human lives - both japanese and American - one must also take note of the political situation.

The Soviet Union is taking larger and larger parts of Asia. Their hold is getting better and they're running over the enemy and will soon be able to launch strikes against Japan. Or at the very least get a better political postion well knowing the a situation that'll develop between the former allies USA and the Soviet Union.

So the USA wished to end it quickly before the Soviet Union gained even more influence. The atomic bomb was the tool to do it.

I'll find some references if I have the time later. This is just a very very loose description, something I remember hearing about back in 7th grade. Need to read up on it but I am quite positive this was something that the Americans thought about.

Kelly[KGN] · « **Reply #37 on:** January 08, 2003, 08:34:27 AM »

Hi,

StSanta, you find sources for your posting in Churchill's "The 2nd World War", and I guess there aren't many people who had more insight in the overall politics than he had.
The USA and GB wanted to end the war, FAST, to avoid more influence of the CCCP. That's what churchill wrote.

Toad · « **Reply #38 on:** January 08, 2003, 08:41:14 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Naso
P.S.
Dont forget the blockade that US raise against Japan before the war.

Let's talk about this "blockade" and where it fits in the timeline.

Shalll we start with 1931 and the invasion/conquest of Manchuria, or start with the Japanese war against China in 1937.

OK. What "blockade" are you talking about.

hardcase · « **Reply #39 on:** January 08, 2003, 08:52:13 AM »

Why not complain about Bomber Harris and his firebombing of Dresden..for starters.

HC

Dowding (Work) · « **Reply #40 on:** January 08, 2003, 09:03:18 AM »

Or the firebombing of Tokyo and other Japanese cities.

To me there are only a few stance on this topic that make any sense to me:

1) The Atomic attacks were justified, as was the area bombing of Dresden, Hamburg, Berlin etc.

2) The Atomic attacks were unjustified, as was the area bombing of Dresden, Hamburg, Berlin etc.

The two views that make no sense to me, and are often heard are:

1) The Atomic attacks were justified but the bombing of German cities was not

or

2) The atomic attacks weren't justified but the bombing of German cities were.

I guess what I'm trying to stay is that a dead civilian is a dead civilian, regardless of nationality and regardless of which side of the fence you sit. You can't really argue one deserved to die over another.

lazs2 · « **Reply #41 on:** January 08, 2003, 09:07:13 AM »

One bomb two bombs... whatever... fact is... it all worked out for the best. Even poland goading germany into war worked out in the end. Although I still harbor some resentment against poland for starting the war.
lazs

Ripsnort · « **Reply #42 on:** January 08, 2003, 09:16:47 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
Even poland goading germany into war worked out in the end. Although I still harbor some resentment against poland for starting the war.
lazs

~~Swim swim swim~~~sniff, sniff~ Swim away fast, swim away fast!~~

Yeager · « **Reply #43 on:** January 08, 2003, 09:52:36 AM »

There are but few moments in the lives of men where what anyone of them thinks matters worth a damn. This aint one of em.

Boroda · « **Reply #44 on:** January 08, 2003, 10:41:24 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by ET
The Russian's did not declare war on Japan until after the first A-bomb dropped. They saw the power and knew we would win the war. If they had participated in the invasion of Japan they would have demanded control of half of Japan, such as happened in Europe. There might have been another Iron Curtain in Japan. The Japanese surrender after the second bomb kept the Russians from gaining a large footprint in Japan. The four island's they did occupy, the Kurile Islands was still in their control long after Japan became a economic power and is still in their control 57 years later. Japan and Russia never signed a peace treaty because of these island's

I should add this to my signature template:

USSR declared war on Japan because of agreements with other allies made in Tehran and Yalta. Stalin promiced to attack Japan "no later then 3 months since war in Europe ends".So August 8th was a quite predictable date.

I think that Soviet forces were capable of capturing at least Hokkaido without any problems. It's must be very interesting to read any documents and plans for Manchurian operation that were coordinated with allies. I never have heard anything about such coordinated plans, but they must exist. I have never read about Soviet plans of invading territory of modern Japan. BTW, USSR did invade Japan. I mean Southern Sakhalin.

IIRC Japan even offered to give Hokkaido to USSR for political assistance in ending war with US. They made attempts ask Stalin for help, but it was already too late, the Manchurian army group was transported from Europe and ready for attack...