Author Topic: Thought on how maybe to stop suicides on cv. HTC please read  (Read 859 times)

Offline akak

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« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2003, 11:30:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by rod367th
Okay thx for replys but what do you think of bombs must be 3k over water to arm? could it work your thoughts on this.



Because we all agree a cap or 5 "inch gunners could stop most.



No because there are some that go in low level and then pop up to pickle their bombs on target.  You'd eliminate the low level bomb attacks in a quest to punish a few.


Ack-Ack

Offline Bluedog

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« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2003, 02:00:50 AM »
Wish we could skip-bomb. It would make boat hunting seriously fun.
No less suicidal of course, but still a great deal of fun.

Blue

Offline Sox62

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« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2003, 02:22:52 AM »
The problem here is that the CV's are not being used the way they were historically.

 How many times did a fleet park off an enemy base,and send wave after wave to attack it?At the same time,this makes it vulnerable to air base attack from nearby bases.Expecting someone to up from a capped vulched base instead of a nearby base where he can get alt before attacking the cv is silly,and the cv's infinite ability to spawn planes makes it too big a threat to ignore.

 Cv's were attacked by OTHER enemy fleets,and rarely were attacked from shore based planes,because for the most part they would be out of range,and if not,very difficult to find.

 I'm not sure if this is something that can be solved-our maps are hardly on the scale of the south pacific.

 Just my .02

Offline GPreddy

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« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2003, 02:57:01 AM »
I think historically the ack curtain was a great deal more fierce as well but that is something that would only receive more whines if its effectiveness were increased. Does anyone have any hard evidence that level bombers ever sank a carrier? I know a lot tried as Ive seen pictures of circling ships but the bomb hits appeared to be way off and ineffective as if this were a lot more difficult than it is in this game.

Offline Tumor

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« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2003, 06:21:11 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Cobra
How about putting up a CAP around the CV group?

Cobra



This would work if people would ever learn the CAP NEVER works at the defended location.  You can park 15 planes at 20k over a CV and I promise you I'll get my egg through.  Put those planes a sector away along most likely avenues of approach and most likely I'll never get visual on the CV.

....was the same in Air Warrior and I'll bet in Warbirds too.  More people than not have some goofy idea that defense is limited to the airspace immediately over the area being defended.
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Offline akak

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« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2003, 07:24:36 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GPreddy
I think historically the ack curtain was a great deal more fierce as well but that is something that would only receive more whines if its effectiveness were increased. Does anyone have any hard evidence that level bombers ever sank a carrier? I know a lot tried as Ive seen pictures of circling ships but the bomb hits appeared to be way off and ineffective as if this were a lot more difficult than it is in this game.


I thought all the Japanese carriers were sunk by either dive/torpedo bombers and/or submarines or other surface ships.  Did any level bomber sink any type of capital ship (battleships and cruisers included)?


ack-ack

Offline Kelly[KGN]

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« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2003, 07:55:57 AM »
Hi,

not really, in early ww2 all airforces figured that it's nearly impossible to hit a moving ship with a levelbomber.
At flank speed ships are faster than most imagine and the least bearing change was enough to evade a bomb coming down from above 12kft.

The only thing I remember was the sinking of 2 german destroyers passing through a mine barrier by He111s due to wrong friend/foe identification.
But this is a really difficult example, because the facts are totally confusing, if the bombs hit, and both destroyers ran into the mine barrier and were sunk by mines, or if it were the bombs which sunk them. I'm not sure if it was ever clarified what really happened. The Luftwaffe never admitted they made a mistake, and the Kriegsmarine had no proof it were He111s.
:D
But anyway, destroyers aren't armored ships, and I doubt same had happened to a cruiser, or if the destroyers had the ability to evade.

For all what I know the only level bombing with a good result was on ships in port. (German fleet at Brest, or Tirpitz at Tromsöe for example).

Offline LePaul

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« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2003, 02:00:29 PM »
Now don't flame me too hard for using logic, reason and common sense now....but if you defend your CVs FROM the inbound cons, you won't have the suicide jabo problem.  

Ive used P51s at 15k to dive in on CVs, drop, pull out and scoot home.  There are a few folks who are DEADLY in the 5" guns...I've been blown to bits at 15k just getting near the fleet.

I just find it incredibly lame someone feels we need to weaken bombs because their side does not adequately protect their fleet.  The fault of a sunken fleet lies in the lack of defense, not how unfair it is that the bad guys' bombs hit.

Offline rod367th

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« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2003, 04:02:09 AM »
Yes Gpreddy RAF coastal  bombed 498 ships before d-day. Some where sunk using 12,030lb big boy. The tirpitz was a 42,000 ton battle ship. RAF Costal used 22,ooolbders 12k 8k 4k 19k2000's to sink ships. During the retreat from dunkirk Germanies JU88's drop over 41,000 tons on allied ships trying to ferry briyish home.





 1941 alone coastal command  sank 185 ships. Also sank Submaries with Sunderlands too.

Offline DREDIOCK

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« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2003, 09:04:29 AM »
LMAO I couldn't agree with you more.
It never ceases to amaze me how people insist on defending a base by fighting only over the base. Now this is fine if your base is close to being captured and your goonhunting then yea. it makes sense to fly over your own base.
But it seems to me the best way to defend your base is to not let the enemy planes get there to begin with. This can only be accomplished two ways.  
1- intercepting the planes enroute well before they get to your base or in attacking that base which the attacking hordes are coming from. the latter being more effective.
I know when I set out to hit a base or CV 98% of the battle is getting to the base being attacked. And if I get there...Well my success rate is about 98% percent of hitting what I came to hit.

 After careful consideration I have come to the conclusion that many people think that any dive bombing attack on a CV is an intentional  suicide run. With the exeption on level bombers trying to dive-bomb. I highly doubt it. I think most people would prefer to survive the run even if they dont hit the CV.  Few do though because of the horrific accuracy of the CV ack.
 I suppose the folks that whine about this would prefer if the Cv was unsinkable. LOL after all how were most sunk from the air but by Dive attacks? Outside of the diving bombruns by level bombers I dont see a single style of attack on a CV as being anything less then legit. And that can be fixed by simply making it so bombs cant be dropped from level   bombers cept by the bombadier and have the plane go on autolevel when in that pos.
Funny how you see two arguments one on the demand for historical accuracy, yet many of the same voices complain when this is followed. such as suicide attacks. Doesnt ANYONE remember Kamakazies?
Now if they REALLY want accuracy. they would limit the amount of planes that can up from a  CV or any other base for that matter at any one time. they would also make it so the support ships could be taken out with guns.
But back to suicide attacks. Dont you think that any country would do anything, including asking their pilots to commit suicide in trying to stop  wave after wave or endless hordes  of enemies from attacking them?
heh want to keep your CV from being sunk? The solution is simple. Protect it better. AWAY from the CV. After all, they cant verywell suicide it if they cant get near it can they?
naaa but ya cant do that either can ya? That might take you away from your billion man low alt furball and vulch time huh? It would be totally unthinkable to set up an effective CV cap   while others get to furball,pork and vulch a base.which would be a"historically accurate" stratagy for keeping CVs from getting sunk.

Hey HTC and crew can only carry the accuracy so far. you/we all haveto provide the rest
Same thing goes with this as as with the HO whines.  If you aint gonna do what it takes to prevent these things yourself. Dont complain when it happens

Drediock
 

Quote
Originally posted by Tumor
This would work if people would ever learn the CAP NEVER works at the defended location.  You can park 15 planes at 20k over a CV and I promise you I'll get my egg through.  Put those planes a sector away along most likely avenues of approach and most likely I'll never get visual on the CV.

....was the same in Air Warrior and I'll bet in Warbirds too.  More people than not have some goofy idea that defense is limited to the airspace immediately over the area being defended.
Death is no easy answer
For those who wish to know
Ask those who have been before you
What fate the future holds
It ain't pretty

Offline guttboy

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« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2003, 01:38:23 AM »
Alf,
I agree with you wholeheartedly.  If you want the CV to stay alive...be tactically sound with it.  Dont park it off the beach!

With that being said I managed to kill a CV the other day when it decided to get in the manned ack range at our port.  Its amazing how easily it will die!

Offline frank3

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« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2003, 02:24:41 PM »
what if you could destroy guns on the ship instead of the whole ship?
and it would be cool if we really could use the elevators and lower-dek of the CV.

so, what's the best way to sink a ship with a torp. without getting killed?

I never did that......


frank