Author Topic: Post some feedback on Socialism (Read 872 times)

lazs2 · « **Reply #15 on:** January 10, 2003, 11:22:23 AM »

just say no to socialism... say "but out" to the (lol) "home office".
lazs

Ike 2K# · « **Reply #16 on:** January 10, 2003, 12:07:07 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
You mean nobody in the soviet union had fancy houses and vacation homes and servants and cars and fancy clothes and jewelry and......

Everyone had the same income?
lazs

in the former USSR, the working class had big apartments but 2 or 3 families live in the same apartment (eww).

Montezuma · « **Reply #17 on:** January 10, 2003, 01:32:46 PM »

Either way, when you get far enough out on the left or right political spectrum, you end up with totalitarian states that are not going to be very concerned about individual rights.

miko2d · « **Reply #18 on:** January 10, 2003, 01:34:33 PM »

Ike 2K#: in the former USSR, the working class had big apartments but 2 or 3 families live in the same apartment (eww).

Each family had a room in a 2-3-6 room appartment and shared teh kitchen and bathroom and lavatory (which is separate from the bathroom in normal countries). What's wrong with it? Isn't it what socialism is all about - sharing?

miko

miko2d · « **Reply #19 on:** January 10, 2003, 01:41:04 PM »

Montezuma: Either way, when you get far enough out on the left or right political spectrum, you end up with totalitarian states that are not going to be very concerned about individual rights.

There is no left or right - it's just propaganda bor ignorants. There is individualism and collectivism.

Either a state serves a free individual or an individual serves a state.

Left and right fight each other for the spoils, not principle. Both wish to control production or distribtion for "common good" and "state". None allows individual to have a choice. So they are the same in all respects but some minor rhetoric.

miko

Montezuma · « **Reply #20 on:** January 10, 2003, 01:55:56 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by miko2d

Each family had a room in a 2-3-6 room appartment and shared teh kitchen and bathroom and lavatory (which is separate from the bathroom in normal countries). What's wrong with it? Isn't it what socialism is all about - sharing?
miko

And would you abridge the precious private property rights of a slum lord who wanted to own the same kind of building in the US?

StSanta · « **Reply #21 on:** January 10, 2003, 02:04:34 PM »

Socialism is a noble goal used as an excuse to exert power over more productive citizens.

vorticon · « **Reply #22 on:** January 10, 2003, 02:18:54 PM »

im fairly sure that norway (or some country around there) is socialist...

heres a diagram

soviet union/china(communist|-------|(socialism)---------|------------|partail control (like canada)------|usa (free market)

hope that helps

miko2d · « **Reply #23 on:** January 10, 2003, 02:31:47 PM »

Montezuma: And would you abridge the precious private property rights of a slum lord who wanted to own the same kind of building in the US?

You either have a government that can abrige people's rights arbitrarily or the one that cannot. Someone will always find a good reason to abrige more and more of them.

In this case there is not even a good reason. You can do whatever you want with your property and if people are willing to rent it, it must be worth it to them. Slums are rarely built around families - most move to it from some place where they are worse off in order to achive something. By preventing them from doing so you necessarily keep them where they were - in a worse place than a slum - you heartless self-deluding bastard. It's not like they have a Hilton suite ready if a slum is not available. People move into slums fro opportunities they do not have where they came from!

You've just failed to apply primitive math. The pre-capitalist population was stable despite high birth rate because lack of resources (land) killed excess children and prevented adults from forming families.
Once a capitalist (a fellow who used some of his savings to open a production facility) provided an income/living conditions in the city, however bad those were, they were worth than death in a village or inability to procreate.

So capitalism created proletariat - literally. Without capitalism those people would never exist, period. Developed society outgrows slums. Productivity growth and increase of capitalisation inevitably increase real wages of the workers.
Only if you have inflow of new people from terrible rural conditions or foreign countries into the better conditions of the slums could slums exist in a modern society.

Liberals would bar such unfortunates entrance into the cities preferring them to die out out of sight rather than spoil their view with temporary slums. And if it involves violation of freedom of prospective tenants and landlord - so much for the better. An excuse to exercise power, do evil while pretending to strve for good. Typical liberal crap.

miko

miko2d · « **Reply #24 on:** January 10, 2003, 02:39:23 PM »

vorticon - you are severely deluded if you believe that USA is a free market. Such delusions actually give free market a bad name. We have mostly socialist economy here.

Add up percentage of government spending in GDP - direct influence, control of property through laws and regulation which is really ownership - and you will see that our market is at most 10% free, probably less. Don't forget fiscal and monatary policies, trade controls, etc. Just plain ownership. When you control few trillions of debt into market or (unconstitutionally) own huge tracts of land everybody else is a small fish, no matter how free. Besides government you have unions which is a monopoly on labor supply. So you can take another cut off it.

All the problems we have that are blamed on non-existing free market are really the fault of the socilaist control.

Maybe USA in 1850 had more or less (50% ?) free market but it was going downhill ever since. Free market never had a chance to prove itself completely since it never existed. Social development towards it was diverted back to command-style collectivism by "progressives".

miko

Montezuma · « **Reply #25 on:** January 10, 2003, 02:46:35 PM »

I hope your next-door neighbor decides to let his building become a squalid tenement... or maybe turn it into a pig farm

Ike 2K# · « **Reply #26 on:** January 10, 2003, 02:57:39 PM »

what kind of "peoples car" did the soviets used in their country?

28sweep · « **Reply #27 on:** January 10, 2003, 03:02:25 PM »

Didn't Mark Twain once say that "Communists are just Socialists in a Hurry."

2Slow · « **Reply #28 on:** January 10, 2003, 03:23:03 PM »

Read Ayan Rand.

miko2d · « **Reply #29 on:** January 10, 2003, 04:14:36 PM »

Montezuma: I hope your next-door neighbor decides to let his building become a squalid tenement... or maybe turn it into a pig farm

As long he does not violate my property with odor, noise, objects or risk, he can build a space shuttle launchpad for all I care.

It's not like the current state cares much about protecting us from such things like pollution - it's "only" a property damage. Much more important to have cops catching seat-belt violators.
Also, it's the state that is trying to build a homeless shelter in my nice area, not an evil landlord.
Bussing people from some areas into school next door - also not a landlord but a state.
Preventing affordable housing from being built by stupid zoning - or workplaces close to where people actually live instead of across town - also state's fault, not landlord's.

Public housing in Downtown Manhattan or Jersey City - which had to be blown up, so bad they were - not a private enterprise.

Ike 2K#: what kind of "peoples car" did the soviets used in their country?

Mostly a model of Fiat that was called "Zhiguli" built at a plant bought from Italians. The same model was produced for about 25(?) years without significant changes. Which was good since you registered to buy one with a wait of 10-15 years, so you had a good idea what you were getting. Not a color though - that required paying a bribe to arrange.

There were also two more "domestic" brands/models - Volga and Moskvitch. Also produced for decades without changes.

miko