current US income tax system explained

[Toad]

Further, that "married filing joint" couple that makes $20,000... the next higher bracket that the chart shows the Dems giving a 14.3% break to.....

Well, in 2002, their taxes on an AGI of $20,000 would have been $2400.

Their 14.3% "tax break" would be a whopping $ 343.20.

Weren't these the same Dems that complained when Bush gave everybody a $600 return of their own money? Saying it wouldn't do any good and wouldn't help the economy?

Now they're going to give about 1/2 that and it's going to be a great thing?

[whgates3]

Originally posted by Toad
Are you suggesting that all should be paid the same no matter what job in society they perform?

#10 doesn't have a job (he just collects interest from 4-8) but is considering a run for the senate

[Toad]

ah.. so you're suggesting that either all work for the same wages or none should have to work?

[weazel]

George W. Bush has unveiled his so-called "economic stimulus" plan, and it looks more like a plan for economic disaster.

Here's the deal: Tell everyone that you're trying to stimulate the economy as a cover for your real agenda, which is to give another massive tax break to the rich people who bankrolled your campaign.

The centerpiece of the Bush plan is a huge tax cut on dividends, which (surprise!) substantially favors the affluent.

According to the Tax Policy Center, people earning more than $316,895 a year would on average save $13,243 in taxes, while people earning $21,350 would save just $47.

And remember that budget surplus we had during the last presidential administration?

Well, you can forget about it.

By some estimates, the Bush tax plan would increase the deficit to $350 billion next year, a new record. It's fiscal responsibility..... Republican style!

[Toad]

Originally posted by weazel
According to the Tax Policy Center, people earning more than $316,895 a year would on average save $13,243 in taxes, while people earning $21,350 would save just $47.

Hmmmm..

So let's see.....

The people that pay the MOST tax... get the biggest refund.

The people that pay the LEAST tax... get the smallest refund.



How's that again? If you pay no tax at all, shouldn't you get the biggest refund?

Ah... that's right.. the little tale that started this whole thread sort of explains that in an allegorical kind of way.





It's a "progressive" system. Now, if you want a "direct transfer of wealth system" why don't you just come out and say so?

Effective Tax Rate

[weazel]

An economy works best in a society that is integrated rather than exploitative – a society wherein all have a "stake" in its success.

In short, the Democrats feed the golden goose, the Republicans cook it.

Chimpys newest "stimulis package" won't do dick as far as kick-starting the economy...and isn't that supposed to be the idea behind it?

[RedDg]

The original analogy is dead on.  Let me ask the left-wingers this:  What do you think that punishing others' successes by continually taxing their efforts will acheive?

How exactly can you multiply the wealth of some by dividing it from others?

[Toad]

Nice dodge, Weasel.

Failure to address the basic questions:

If people below $12K AGI pay NO tax, how can the Democrats give them a 12% "tax cut"?

If people at $20K AGI are only getting a ~$350 "tax cut" from the Democrats, how is this better than the $600 they got from the Republicans in the last "tax cut"? Back then the Democrats assailed the $600 as meaningless because it was so small it would do nothing for the economy. What changed? Why is $350 soooooo much better?

And finally, answer straight up: Aren't you proposing a "transfer of wealth" tax system? You're in favor of giving money to folks that pay no tax. Where's it coming from?

[Nash]

"Back then the Democrats assailed the $600 as meaningless because it was so small it would do nothing for the economy."

... and it didn't.

"What changed? Why is $350 soooooo much better?"

Right ... So I gotta wonder what the point of the tax cut is in the first place.

I don't think folks makin' a half mill are gonna thank their lucky stars for the extra 15 grand... just the same as folks makin' 20 grand aren't gonna give a rat's arse about saving 50 bucks.

Meanwhile, the surplus turns into a defecit...

I think I'm missing something.

[Toad]

It's just politics as usual. They don't know what to do.. neither side.. but they know they have to make a gesture..... and then criticize the other side's gesture.

Still, anytime you get YOUR money back and outta the hands of the bureacrats... can't be all bad.

[Nash]

Well no... Nobody had to make a "gesture"... (whatever for?).

I think your answer is a bit simplistic. S'ok... Mine is too.

The Bush Admin, alone, proposed this 674 million tax cut last week. I have never seen the Dems proposal and don't know where weazel got it... But if it's indeed correct, I suspect that being a minority in both the House and Senate they were in the unfortunate position of saying "look, if you want to do this, here is how we think it should work". A counter proposal should Bush really want to push this through. Just a guess.

It's not like both sides were racing against the clock to come up with their own "gestures" and happened to bust out with them at the same time. "Look everyone! A tax cut! Oh... you guys too, huh?"

At any rate... The Treasury Secretary that Bush ousted last month thinks the tax cut is a mistake (not much of a suprise), Bush is receiving an unusual ammount of opposition from within his own party, and Fleischer is already signaling that Bush is willing to compromise. Some suggest the 1st draft was written to score points from his big GOP contributors... and most everyone thinks he's got no choice but to back down.

[irrelevant bashing of bush deleted.]

[Toad]

Oh, don't get me wrong..... I don't think the tax cut will do anything for the economy.

As for the Democrats, they knew Bush planned to announce his cut and they raced to get theirs out there ahead of him.

Basically neither party has any idea what to do about "ending the recession" or "fixing the economy".

I'd guess it's a "time" thing. People's attitudes go through cycles and until the balance of folks decide "it's ok" and "life goes on" they're not going to spend much, "tax cuts" not withstanding.

They can always cut spending.


NOT. Politicians DO NOT cut spending.

So, if they get less bucks to waste... that's a good thing.

Anyway, that's not really the point of this thread. This thread started out with the "class warfare" aspect.

And the analogy is a good one.

[Nash]

"Anyway, that's not really the point of this thread. This thread started out with the "class warfare" aspect."

True enough.

[whgates3]

Originally posted by Toad
ah.. so you're suggesting that either all work for the same wages or none should have to work?

you're quite misguded in your attempt to put words into my virtual mouth. how you got that i dont know, as i said #10 doesn't work & suggested that #1 doesn't either.
the pitfall of trickle down in a bad economy is that the domestic capital markets are depressed, so the newly available capital created by a tax cut at the top goes to more profitable markets (overseas), which is unfortunatly shortsighted, as those who benefit from our system most have the most interest in supporting it.

[bounder]

Originally posted by -ammo-
Got the following froma friend. It is right on the money:)


And that, boys and girls, journalists and college instructors, is how the tax system works.  The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction.  Tax them too much,  attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up at the table anymore. Where would that leave the rest?  Unfortunately, most taxing authorities anywhere cannot seem to grasp this rather straightforward logic!

T. Davies Professor of Accounting & Chair,
Division of Accounting and Business Law
The University of South Dakota

So the US tax system works like a restaurant? What about tax avoidance? Tax havens?  The richest three guys can hire assistants to argue their indiviual contributions with the restauranteur, threatening to never eat there again unless he charges them individually, cuts their bill and feeds the poorest 4 guys with roaches and cardboard.

And it's not like you pay much tax in the USA anyway, amongst western industrialized nations you have the lowest tax burden of all.

Why get so hung up about tax? If its such a burden, don't you have a right to defend yourself against tax collectors with lethal force?