Affirmative Action

[midnight Target]

It has been pointed out repeatedly.

[AKS\/\/ulfe]

No, actually, it hasn't... just a bunch of "it's obviously racist" and "it's discriminatory"

But there has been no factual evidence of racial bias/discrimination on this test that I have seen.

And you still ducked my question: A black man and me do the same on the SATs... but he deserves benefit of the doubt and gets admitted to a 4 year university, while I deserve to go to community college (while you believe this man should be admitted to the 4 year university)....

No there ain't a damn thing wrong with that picture... not one.
-SW

[capt. apathy]

It has been pointed out repeatedly.
__________________

It's been stated. It's been repeated.  It hasn't been proven.
all we have heard is people repeatedly stating over and over that they think there is a racial bias.

short of asking hair care questions I fail to see how a 'racialy biased' question is possable.  

the existance of racially biased questions (I don't believe they are possable), would give great amunition to many racist organizations.  it would prove the clan and the nazi's right, because the only way you can have racially biased questions is if different races are inherantly bad at certain questions.

how can a person state that "we are equal", and then in the next breath say "It's not fair that you ask that question, I'm black, blacks suck at that kind of question"

it just doesn't add up.  pick a line of thought and stick with it throughout the argument.  

so which is it?  are blacks just not capable of doing well in certain subjects?  or is the racially biased question a myth?  they can't both be true.

[midnight Target]

You have been provided with statistics, quotes from experts, and questions.

One of the questions had a 19% difference in the number of correct answers by whites vs. hispanics. Sure the geographical region was significant. Of course it was. SO WHAT? The point is not the origin of the bias, it is the fact that it is there. The question unfairly assisted those from Lemon-yellow regions. Those people are mostly white. It unfairly hurt those from Lemon-green areas, those people are mostly Hispanic.

Clear as the skinny nose on your face.

[capt. apathy]

Sure the geographical region was significant-

it was everything.  it had nothing to do with race and everything to do with region.   in what way would whites from the same area have an advatage over hispanics?  in what way would hispanics from 'yellow lemon' areas be at a disadvatage from whites in these areas.  in fact hispanics from yellow lemon areas would have an advatage over whites from green lemon areas (even before AA discrimination).

I'll say it again.  to lump people in catagories like you are doing based on their race is racist.

[AKS\/\/ulfe]

The lemon thing is one question off the test, the only question... other than that, can you find something that actually supports racial discrimination on the test?

In this case, that question was in fact, geographical discrimination... using the color of one's skin is just a means to say "oh lookie, we found a bias"..

Out of all the quotes of experts, and statistics, you have yet to prove the test itself can discriminate based on the color of your skin. The statistics can be manipulated anyway someone wants to. Case in point: I start a test with two groups of people and the test is a creme pie. I found that the first group of people ate down the entire pie. I conclude they like creme pies. The second group ate very little or none. I conclude the second group didn't like creme pies.

I failed to mention that the first group that ate the entire pie hasn't eaten for days. I also failed to mention that the second group consists of diabetics and people who had a meal just prior to taking the test.

The test only discriminates based on the level of your education, or the effort you are willing to put into preparing for the test... and that's that.

Of course, you still ducked my question... but I already know the answer... cuz I'm white, I deserve to not get the chances a black man that scored exactly the same on the same test at being pushed onto a better education...

That's blatant racism.
-SW

[lazs2]

well... it seems the 'facts" are not that apparent... I have allways heard that those who do well on the SAT also have a higher school completion rate now... MT says that isn't so.   I have also heard that whites do better in both the SAT hand higher education when both whites and blacks have the same grades in high school.

either way... the SAT can't be biased on the math portion.  

either way... there is no reason why one race should be favored over another for admissons when they both score the same on the SAT.  

lazs

[midnight Target]

I get the feeling that there is really nothing that can be done to convince you that tests can be biased. Even math tests.

But I am hard headed enough to try...


High School girls tend to have higher GPA's than the boys, including Math. Why then do they continually score lower on the SAT math portion?


here...

WHY THE GENDER GAP?


Although it is clear that university admissions tests under predict females' abilities, there is no definitive answer to what causes this bias. It appears that several factors contribute to the gender gap.

Biased test questions
A 1989 study by Phyllis Rosser, The SAT Gender Gap: Identifying the Causes, found that the vast majority of questions exhibiting large gender differences in correct answer rates are biased in favor of males, despite females' superior academic performance. Rosser found that females generally did better on questions about relationships, aesthetics and the humanities, while males did better on questions about sports, the physical sciences and business.

This conclusion is supported by an earlier study by ETS researcher Carol Dwyer, who provides some historical perspective on the gender gap in her 1976 report. She notes that it is common knowledge among test-makers that gender differences can be manipulated by simply selecting different test items. Dwyer cites as an example the fact that, for the first several years the SAT was offered, males scored higher than females on the Math section but females achieved higher scores on the Verbal section. ETS policy-makers determined that the Verbal test needed to be "balanced" more in favor of males, and added questions pertaining to politics, business and sports to the Verbal portion. Since that time, males have outscored females on both the Math and Verbal sections. Dwyer notes that no similar effort has been made to "balance" the Math section, and concludes that, "It could be done, but it has not been, and I believe that probably an unconscious form of sexism underlies this pattern. When females show the superior performance, 'balancing' is required; when males show the superior performance, no adjustments are necessary."

Multiple-choice format
A joint study by the Educational Testing Service and the College Board concluded that the multiple-choice format itself is biased against women. The study examined a variety of question types on Advanced Placement tests (like the SAT, made by ETS for the College Board and administered to college bound seniors) and found that the gender gap narrowed or disappeared on all types of questions (e.g. short answer, essay, constructed response) except multiple choice. Similar results were also found with the California Bar Exam and the SAT's English Composition Test with Essay. The researchers conclude, "The better relative performance of females on constructed-response tests has important implications for high-stakes standardized testing... If both types of tests measure important education outcomes, equity concerns would dictate a mix of the two types of assessment instruments."

Guessing
The SAT is scored with a "guessing penalty," which deducts one-quarter point for every incorrect answer. Questions left blank are simply scored as zero. The intent of this policy is to make random guessing inadvisable. However, since one or two answer choices can usually be eliminated as obviously incorrect, it is often in the test-taker's best interest to make an educated guess.

Research indicates that males are more likely to take risks on the test and guess when they do not know the answer, whereas females tend to answer the question only if they are sure they are correct. Unwillingness to make educated guesses on this exam has been shown to have a significant negative impact on scores.

The ACT does not have a guessing penalty, which may be one reason why the gender gap on that test is much smaller.

"Speededness"
Another factor that contributes to the gender gap is the fast-paced, or "speeded" nature of the test. On some sections of the exam, students must answer as many as 35 questions (some of them requiring lengthy reading passages) in 30 minutes--an average of only 51 seconds per question.

Substantial evidence exists that females approach problem-solving differently than males; they are more likely to work a problem out completely, to consider more than one- possible answer, and to check their answers. While these are desirable traits in school and in life, they work against females on an exam that is supposed to predict their ability to do academic work.

Numerous studies have found that when the time constraint is lifted from the test, females' scores improve markedly, while males' remain the same or increase slightly. Un-timed administrations of the test still show a small score difference between males and females, suggesting that speededness is only one of several factors that bias the exam against young women.

The Test-Makers' Excuse
Some test company officials have suggested that the gender gap is caused by the fact that more females take the tests than males. They argue that the larger pool of females includes more low- scoring students, which in turn reduces the average score for women.
In fact, research shows that controlling for these variables does not explain the gap. A study by L.M. Sharp, for example, finds no evidence that females' lower scores can be attributed to the larger number of women taking the exam, and concludes that the causes of the gap lie elsewhere than in the demographic makeup of the male and female testing populations.

Twice as many males as females achieve SAT scores over 700. If the scoring gap were caused solely by the larger pool of females taking the exam, females should still attain the same percentage of high scores as males. In fact, the opposite is true: the gender gap is largest in the highest score ranges.

Federal District Judge Walker, in a 1989 decision barring New York's use of SAT scores alone to award scholarships, concluded that "...under the most conservative studies presented in evidence, even after removing the effect of [factors such as ethnicity, parental education, high school classes, and proposed college major], at least a 30 point combined differential [out of approximately 60 points] remains unexplained."

 

[AKS\/\/ulfe]

"This conclusion is supported by an earlier study by ETS researcher Carol Dwyer, who provides some historical perspective on the gender gap in her 1976 report."

The exam, how the test is administered and the way it is administered has greatly changed since then.

I took it 3 times, each time they told us that a guess was better than no answer at all.

They also allow students to take them with a significantly extended time limit now.

As for the multiple choice format... how else are they going to grade it? If you can't choose the right answer, then you didn't know it to begin with.
-SW

[midnight Target]

My god! You're right!

Obviously a Phd. means nothing anymore. These idiots just had to call you to straighten out the entire situation. If only we had known sooner SW!!

[AKS\/\/ulfe]

I see, we dodge questions, and make up answers to something that doesn't exist as well.
-SW

[AKIron]

MT, I don't see anyone arguing about a gender bias. There is more difference between genders of the same race than there is between the same gender of different races.

If the tests could be adjusted to make scores balance out across genders and races without everyone pegging it don't you think this would have been done by now?

[capt. apathy]

WHY THE GENDER GAP?
A 1989 study by Phyllis Rosser
researcher Carol Dwyer, …. In her 1976 report

WOW, now that’s proof of racial bias.  2 women think that the tests aren’t fair to women. (you don’t think they just found answers they where looking to find from the outset and justified them after the fact?  Nah.) and 27 year old report? That’s current.

The only thing  that remotely shows bias is-

Research indicates that males are more likely to take risks on the test and guess when they do not know the answer, whereas females tend to answer the question only if they are sure they are correct. Unwillingness to make educated guesses on this exam has been shown to have a significant negative impact on scores.

While this could explain how a sexually biased test could be assembled. (not racial though) it would first have to concede that we are not the same or equally suited to all educational disciplines or forms of employment.  In many fields mine included, the perfect answer is not often an option.  You need to assess the situation quickly, assess the resources you have on hand today and find the most efficient way to get to an acceptable conclusion.  If you sit there undecided looking for the perfect answer while the clock ticks away you aren’t going to make it past the first day.

So while this may explain differentials in test scores. It would also go along way into giving validity to over-looking women in certain fields.  If we are going  accept that their brains work differently, then the next logical step is to accept that maybe those whose brains work this way aren’t suited for certain work.

Now, if you are saying that the reason test are racially biased can be proven in the same type of way (i.e. their brains just work differently). Then this would go along way not only to justify racial discrimination in hiring(both ways not just against whites as in AA. But also the opposite) but explain some of the score discrepancies in perfectly honest test.

[midnight Target]

Originally posted by AKIron
MT, I don't see anyone arguing about a gender bias. There is more difference between genders of the same race than there is between the same gender of different races.

If the tests could be adjusted to make scores balance out across genders and races without everyone pegging it don't you think this would have been done by now?

I think people are working towards this goal as we speak. I don't think there is some insidious institutional plot to keep any minority down. These problems are mostly historical, and as such they are as difficult to spot as they are to fix. The point is that there needs to be an awareness of the issue so that it can be addressed.

I don't want you held back because you're white SW. I don't think you will be. I do think that the sins of the past need to be fixed, and they still exist to some extent.

Your question SW IIRC was about you and a black man getting the same score on a SAT. Who should get the nod to a 4 year college. My answer is that basing the decision on that test is the problem. According to the statistics, a black man getting the same score as you on the SAT likely had a better GPA in high school. So statistically speaking with an equal SAT and higher GPA I would choose him. GPA is also a much better indicator of future college success.

OTOH, you could always go to a community college.  

[AKIron]

MT, I could argue that GPA isn't an accurate assesment unless both students graduated from the same highschool. A 4.0 at some schools is much harder to come by than others, hence the standardized testing.