Rummy takes swallows his foot.

[funkedup]

Originally posted by MrLars
Ya gotta seperate performance and perception, the draftees did indeed perform extraordinarly well given the conditions they faced with the abrivieated training they recieved. I was an enlistee, when we recieved new fish as replacements we felt obligated to teach them the survival skills the Army neglected in basic. In the end, whether they were a draftee or enlistee it didn't matter much grunt to grunt.

MrLars.  
What was the ratio of enlistees/conscripts like in your unit?  I take it the officers and NCO's were a lot more likely to be enlistees?

[davidpt40]

If Saddam is breaking the surrender agreement, thats reason enough to invade Iraq.  But thats not all.  The Iraqi secret police are very brutal, torturing and killing not only suspects, but their (the suspects) family and friends also.

Is it worth it liberate Iraq from this brutal dictator who will not cooperate with the U.S and UN?  Its my opinion that the U.S. should have invaded the minute that weapon inspectors were thrown out.  This is not a draftee military anymore.  Nobody has been forced to join in the last 30 years.  

War is brutal, and war is scary, but the fact of the matter is, the first Gulf War was the first time in history where it was safer to be in a war than to be in peacetime training.

[Kanth]

Did you serve weazel?

Originally posted by weazel
Every citizen should be required to serve a minimum of two years in the military when they reach 18 yoa.
 

[Yeager]

Ok...waisted my time and viewed the canned, one sided presentation.  Couldnt find any reference to the remarks via web  search...must be the jewish controlled oil soaked media...hehe.

Taking the presentation as it was, obviously one sided and out of context.  Still, taken on its face value a dumbsh*t thing to say but I wont put any credence in it without a better understanding of the full discourse that led to the remarks, if even factual.

Oh yes, its all about daddy, oil and getting filthy rich, yeah thats it.  What other rational explanation could it be.

[Saurdaukar]

This country is going to eat itself alive from the inside out.

[Gunthr]

Every citizen should be required to serve a minimum of two years in the military when they reach 18 yoa.

Weazel, I can't say I'm entirely against that idea as far as I think it would be a way to help young people mature and learn to appreciate their country.

However, do you know how unpopular this idea actually is to young Dems?

The whole idea is a misguided Democratic idea in hopes of causing a hoopla on the eve of war. (I'm sure you know it was recently floated by a Democratic Senator in hopes of influencing foreign policy by the brauhaha he'd hoped to create?)

What a joke. Even if Rumsfelt mispoke (I didn't read it) its rather pathetic when the Dems feel they have to sieze on every little mistake in public speaking - the President's dislexia included - to deperately try to turn the media to their purposes.

I'm telling you, it is doomed to fail. People see through this. I think you are one of the few people that actually believe that the Dems are serious about wanting the draft. (That is, if you are being honest here)

C'mon Weazel, don't lighten up, tighten up.

The Republican Party, as always, extends its hand to you in warm welcome. You have the link. Just do it.

[Erlkonig]

What do the vets think?

"As an organization founded by Vietnam War veterans seeking justice and fairness for all - whether military personnel or civilians - we are outraged by Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld's comments made at a January 7th DOD press conference when asked about the possibility of resurrecting the draft. Secretary Rumsfeld said troops from Vietnam War conscription, "added 'no value, no advantage, really, to the United States armed services…'"

As Vietnam veterans who served with conscripted soldiers, we find Secretary Rumsfeld's egregious slur a grave insult to the memory, sacrifice and valor of those who lost their lives, and, further, dismissive of the hundreds and thousands of lives, both in the U.S. and in Vietnam, who were devastatingly shattered by the Vietnam War.

We suggest that the Secretary choose his words much more carefully in the future, and be sensitive as to how they affect those who put their lives on the line for this country, whether drafted or enlisted. This is all the more critical as our country is on the eve of war with Iraq, and thousands of U.S. troops are again mobilized to potentially engage in battle."

-- Bobby Muller, President of Vietnam Veterans of America Foundation

Vietnam Veterans of America Foundation

(Washington, D.C) – "We are deeply disappointed by the Secretary of Defense's disparaging remarks last week regarding Vietnam War draftees. These remarks defame the honorable and distinguished service of over 1.7 million draftees during the Vietnam Era," Vietnam Veterans of America national President Thomas H. Corey said today. "The Secretary's comments are without foundation at best and insulting at worst."

Corey was responding to remarks made Wednesday, January 8, by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld that draftees added "no value, no advantage, really, to the United States Armed Services over any sustained period of time."

"Secretary Rumsfeld should know that the Vietnam War could not have continued for 10 years without a military draft of honorable Americans who accepted their military obligation as citizens of this great country," Corey said. "The United States won every military confrontation with the enemy in Vietnam, and that was accomplished with the devoted and often heroic service of many tens of thousands of draftees. Further, a system of military conscription has been used in most of America's wars, including World War II, World War I, and the Civil War."

Rumsfeld made his remarks in response to a call last week by Congressman Charles Rangel (D-N.Y.) to reinstate the draft.

"More than 17,000 of the more than 58,000 men and women whose names are on The Wall were draftees," Corey continued. "It is wrong for anyone to demean their memories and insult their families as the Secretary did last week. Similarly, it is wrong to demean the hundreds of thousands of us who were wounded and disabled as a result of our honorable service. Our service did have value. Most of us went on to make significant contributions to America in civilian life that are valued by our families, our friends, our communities, and by most Americans."

"At a bare minimum, the Secretary owes an apology to the families of those draftees whose names are inscribed on the Vietnam Veterans Memorial in Washington, and those who served with them," Corey said.

Vietnam Veterans of America

[weazel]

I dislike the democratic party probably as much as the republican party.  They are as spineless as the republicans are corrupt.

Other than that there's no difference between the two other than rhetoric.

I could give a toejam if the draft would be popular.

It would do more good than harm to have some of the little misfits you see running around there days to learn some discipline the old fashioned way....by having their bellybutton kicked by an authority figure....

Jebus knows it's not being done in 99% of American homes by parents.

Kanth

Yes I served, I enlisted in 79.

Reasons why is I felt then as I do now it's something every American owes this nation.

Gee funked, you need to join cabbys support group for children who live vicariously through family members experiences.

I served, you didn't...I was willing and you sat on your well exercised ass, all veterans deserve more respect than what rumsfeld is giving them.

[Holden McGroin]

Show Rumsfeld some respect.  He's a Veteran.

"Mr. Rumsfeld attended Princeton University on academic and NROTC scholarships (A.B., 1954) and served in the U.S. Navy (1954-57) as an aviator and flight instructor. In 1957, he transferred to the Ready Reserve and continued his Naval service in flying and administrative assignments as a drilling reservist until 1975. He transferred to the Standby Reserve when he became Secretary of Defense in 1975 and to the Retired Reserve with the rank of Captain in 1989."

[Kanth]

weazel,

 Say you were infantry, dangerous job with the ultimate price for screwing up.

Are you certain you would want, someone who doesn't even want to be there beside you, paying their dues so that someone else can feel some sort of equity? After all it's your life lost when they screw up and fall asleep on watch cause they just don't care.

Say that person's job is operating some really expensive machinery that can kill people (they have those in the military

You want them operating that?

I sure as hell don't.

People in the military get paid, they do risk their lives, they are given benefits because of it.

Just like many other civilian jobs, and like those civilian jobs it's a choice they make because they want to be there for whatever reasons. money, educational bennies, feelings of duty for country etc.

Why not force rich kids to become fisherman as well, after all those folks die, to feed people salmon.

My point is, why put people who have a very important job to do at stake for paper? We dont' have a shortage there isn't an emergency. What is the justification?

Originally posted by weazel

Kanth

Yes I served, I enlisted in 79.

Reasons why is I felt then as I do now it's something every American owes this nation.
 

[MrLars]

Originally posted by Gunthr

What a joke. Even if Rumsfelt mispoke (I didn't read it) its rather pathetic when the Dems feel they have to sieze on every little mistake in public speaking - the President's dislexia included - to deperately try to turn the media to their purposes.

The Republican Party, as always, extends its hand to you in warm welcome. You have the link. Just do it.

I supose you have read the response a representitive of the VN Vets made regarding Rummys comments, he OWES an appology to VN Vets...where is it?

If the Reps extend a hand out to me will it be before or after the obligatory reach around?

[Yeager]

Ok erlkonig, now I recall the topic.  Thanks for your moderation

Rangel calling for the draft was a scam insulting to all fair minded people as well as socialist liberals (even though they probably didnt even comprehend it).  Obviously an attempt to generate ill will amongst americans and to divide us even further, the bastard.
I watched Rangel debate this very topic on MSNBC.  The congressman from NY is a sham and a scam.

I can appreciate Rum going off half cocked when I consider he attempted to defend the volunteer army (huray!) by trying to disparage the concept of a conscript army (agree with some reservations).  In my book, if you cant generate the call to arms voluntarally then the cause for war is either highly suspect like Vietnam or catostrophic like WW2 and right now Iraq is neither.

I suspect most veteran organizations in their sweeping condemnation of rummy went off half cocked as well.  Thanks again to the bastard from NY, Rangel.  WTFG Rangel!  One can only wonder who pulled Rangels strings?  Clinton?

Sorry conscripted vets, Im with the SoD on this one.  Appreciate and honor your sacrifice personally just the same, be sure of that.

[Gunthr]

I supose you have read the response a representitive of the VN Vets made regarding Rummys comments, he OWES an appology to VN Vets...where is it?

MrLars

No sir, I havn't read the response, nor have I read what Rumsfeld said about draftees - been reading to my daughter and putting her to bed.

MrLars, If Vietnam Vets who were draftees have been offended by what Rumsfeld said, I hope that he quickly apologises. I'm not defending him if he meant to show contempt for them. I'm just giving him the benefit of the doubt until I read it. Its hard for me to believe that he really has contempt for anyone who fought for this country, even a draftee. The point is, he is against the draft. So am I at this time because it is not a serious suggestion.

As for the reach around, MrLars, ask not what your country can do for you...    

[funkedup]

Originally posted by weazel
Gee funked, you need to join cabbys support group for children who live vicariously through family members experiences.

WTF is that supposed to mean?  My old man described the Army as a minimum security prison where the inmates have guns.  Why would I want to live THAT vicariously?

I served, you didn't...

[/b]
Which has diddly-all to do with this discussion.

I was willing and you sat on your well exercised ass,

 
Again, who the diddly are you to talk about what I did?  You don't know me from Adam.

all veterans deserve more respect than what rumsfeld is giving them.

He wasn't talking about ALL veterans numbskull.  He was talking about draftees during the Vietnam era that were used to feed the imperialist meatgrinder.  Yes he should have said it more diplomatically.  But when you hear and read enough accounts of drugged up conscripts shooting their own officers, getting high and falling asleep on guard duty, raping, looting, etc., it starts to make you think there might be some truth to what the man is saying.

And don't come back with your "I was a REMF during the 80's so that trumps all your research." roadkill.

PS Why are you obsessed with my ass?

[fd ski]

love the logic.

Man calling for draft in the eve of war: has his reasons questioned.

Man who insults draftees "en masse" with finger pointed smack at those in viertan war, is "misunderstood".  

Get your head out of your bellybutton Yeager. Rangel is making a political play, granted, not a good one at that, and i'm nobody is taking it seriously.
But for a person of authority, the SECRETARY OF DEFENCE no less, to INSULT THE SACRIFICE of those who went to DIE for this country ? What about the WWII vets ? What if he had said the same thing and used WWII example ? I bet that would get your panties in a wad real quick.




Funk, i'm sorry Mike but you are off on a tangent here.
People have different reasons for joining military. Not all, and i would venture to say that most people DO NOT join for patriotic reasons, rather for ECONOMICAL ones, especially in peace time. Those who vounteered when the country called are a special case, offcouse, but i wouldn't demean anyone's ultimate sacrifice, regardless of their reasons for joining or willingness to do so.
They did have a choice to go to canada and say "screw this". They didn't. They went and died. They were heros.