Generalizing Europeans...

[beet1e]

Dowding - no TV footage of WW1. Back then, life was considered cheap. A better example of what I'm trying to say came later, c1983 when the US deployed nuclear missiles at USAF Greenham Common. You're maybe a little young to remember that too. I'm talking about how the protesters - the "Peace Wimmin" joined hands and completely encircled that base, and regularly cut through the wire fence to get inside. Imagine the farce of those women being invited to Downing Street to discuss the issue of nuclear disarmament around the oval table in the Cabinet Room. I happen to believe that the issue of nuclear disarmament was simply used as a front by those women to provide a public forum for their vegetarian-lesbian cause.

But seriously, Dowding. On issues of national security, it simply isn't possible or feasible to divulge top secret information to the general public for them to decide. And only with that classified information can a balanced judgement be made. I don't want government by consensus. Can you imagine it? "Do you think Britain should join the US in the war on Iraq? If you think YES, press the red button on your TV handset now".  

[TWOLF]

Ever hear of Norbat?  Danish, Swedish, Finish, Norwigian (spelling?) and U.S. Troops that were a part of UNPROFOR in Macedonia.  Man, you guys had some good looking medics in Skopja.  We used to go over there for every little nick, and bruse (evil Grin!)

[StSanta]

LOL Frenchy. So wrong though. You should focus on my anti-American posts instead. I'm just mellowing out with age - and this is in fact an anti American post. I am clearly whining about their lack of understanding. They say 'Europe doesn't support us', I show them that we do, as always. They're thick headed cowboys.

Happy now?

Hortlund wrote:
Apparently "the best" they could do was surrender? I would have thought they at least had some more fight in them than the French, but I guess you see things differently.

Anyway, as I said earlier, they had a whole city to fall back into. You know...cities...tanks...comba t...yes, that rings a bell.

Given that a T72 has an armor thickness between 80 - 280 mm and a 5.56 NATO round weights 56 grains and a speed of around 3250fps, the T-72 has a distinct fire power advantage with its 44 round 125mm cannon. Where this cannot be brought to bear, a 7.62mm machine gun with 2000 rounds might suffice; alternatively, the 300 round 12.7mm can also be deployed against infantry.

The Dutch of course have handgrenades and the advantage of being able to stay hidden in houses. Until the T-72 or Shilka destroys the house(s).

These T-72s are backed up by war hardened infantry with a wide array of weapons, from AK-74s, heavy machine guns, RPGs and LATWs. These troops are reasonably well stocked with ammunition and food and have a 20-1 advantage in numbers. In addition, they can call in artillery support for those 'hard to get' places.

Allow me to indulge in a little short story.

’diddlying toejam’, private Anton De Vries said in disgust. ’Why are they all coming here now? I bet Bossy will let the sick take our beds again’.
’Shut up’ Arnout Viljner replied. ’It’s not like you need it more than they do’.
’If I’m gonna die in this little toejamhole of a land, at least I want a diddlying bed’, Vries angrily muttered, before exiting the room, ignoring the obvious replies about everlasting sleep.
For several days, the pattern had been the same. At first, it had only been a trickle of humans – concern written over their faces, carrying all their belongings down the patch of dirt road, risking it with the mines to get to safety. They’d been allowed to stay, even though everyone thought they were just a bit paranoid. Srebenica was a safe zone, defined as such by the UN.

It had quickly changed. Instead of a trickle came a flood. Instead of well prepared clean people came a horde women, children and men dirty from their ordeal of escaping the pursuing enemies. Fear was written over those faces that had expressions; the majority had lost all, their eyes staring senselessly into oblivion. Unimaginable agony was spray painted over their features which had buckled under the strain, collapsed and finally found peace in a state of non expression. Several thousand people were crammed into a little island of perceived safety and the peace keepers were doing what they could to alleviate the worst suffering.

And now the Serbs were coming. Already they’d killed a comrade and taken several others hostage. The troops were preparing best they could, well knowing they would not be able to withstand the opposing forces now that air support was ruled out. They were shoring up their positions, placing sand bags and establishing a proper defensive parametre.
’Defense in depth’ Steve ’Bossy’ Hortlund has said. ’Shoot ’n scoot, fall back into the buildings when you have to. Don’t give the bastards a yard without a fight’. He had said a lot about that. And about comraderie, courage and the need to protect the Muslim refugees. He’d said much less about how to deal with the enemy armor. The lightly armed peace keepers did not have a substantial number of weapons that had any chance of killing a tank, so they’d been told to improvise and use the explosives they had in ambushes. There’d been some talk about knocking down buildings to make progress harder for the tanks, but it had quickly been dropped as everyone agreed that the explosives could be better needed elsewhere. Besides, the enemy tanks and artillery were likely to drop some houses themselves, anyway.
Hortlund was frustrated. While he did not think the Serbs would attack a safe area or UN peace keepers, the negotiations had been futile. In the end, the Serbs had given him til mid day to surrender his weapons and the refugees – failure to comply would be, according to the Serb commander, ’very bloody’.

12.01. Five Russian made T-72s rolling slowly towards the base, followed by fifty or so men and an four barreled 23mm ’Shilka’ AAA gun. Hortlund knew that there were more – lots more. Them sending so few is another attempt at intimidation – he’d have to let them know he would not be intimidated by this threat of violence.
’I’m gonna talk to them – they know better than this’ he said to his second in command.
’You sure it’s wise? Those tanks are buttoned up. Don’t think they wanna talk’ came the reply.
’Our men are alert, everyone is in position. They know that. I’ll talk to them.
Having said that, he left and started the walk towards the approaching tanks.

’diddly diddly diddly diddly diddly’ de Vries said from his position, 50 meters from the main entry to the base.
’SHUT UP. Do your Golly-geeNED job and SHUT UP’ Viljner replied, sweat dripping from his face.
’diddly. We ain’t got a chance against that – look at them! They got diddlying TANKS! What do we have? We’ll get slaugthered!’
de Vries groaned as Vilnjes punch impacted on his ribs.
’SHUT UP. I don’t want to hear it, You volunteered. Now SHUT UP’.

All eyes were on Hortlund. In the distance, they could see him standing in front of the tank, yelling at the commander of the front tank. He in return were gesturing to Hortlund and it was plain that he wanted him to get out of the way.  The tanks stopped, and the Serb infantry quickly walked up to Hortlund, clearly agitated, their guns drawn. More gesturing. Hortlund shaking his head.

Then, Hortlund stumbled. A tenth of a second later came the sharp characteristic sound of an Ak74. De Vries watched as Hortlund fell to he ground, clutching his stomach. The Serb solider who had shot him was openly smiling and approaching Hortlunds contorted body. Rifle raised, a spasm through Hortlunds body followed closely by the sound of the shot that ended his life.

They didn’t even bother to remove his body. The tanks rolled over it, and de Vries thought he could hear the squishy sound as the broad tracks mangled Hortlunds corpse.

The enemy infantry was fanning out, waiting. The tanks stood still.

’What are they WAITING for?’ Viljen screamed. COME you diddlyers, get it OVER with!’.
’They’ll come’ de Vries said.

Then it became blatantly clear what they were waiting for. They didn’t make sense of the sound until a 155mm grenade exploded behind them near the barracks.

’INCOMING!’ Viljen yelled. de Vries didn’t bother to reply

It was intense for 15 minutes -  hastily prepared sand bags were no match for high explosives. The artillery detonated in the air, raining deadly shrapnel on explosed human flesh that desperately were attempting to find shelter. Then there was a more sporadic series of explosion – mortars from the infantry

’How the diddly are we gonna fall back now? We can’t go ANYWHERE out there without being blown to pieces!’
’They’re gonna send in F-16’s. I know they will. They’ll be here within the hour’.
’We’ll be DEAD within 15 minutes!’

That was the last of private de Vries. A 125mm HEAT grenade exploded three feet to his left, tearing his limbs from his body and leaving him nearly decapitated. Viljen met death as the Shilka opened up from a distance of only 150 metres – the guns made fo destroying aircraft finding it easy to destroy his flesh.

And the tanks kept rolling.

I can make your death more heroic if you want to.

War is a dirty business. When you're a peace keeper without the necessary support and with ROE setting the pace, things are hard.

Could the UN have done more? F@rking yes. Is it the Dutch GIs fault what happened? No way.

[straffo]

you are my heros StSanta




btw when will I see you in a plane again ?

[ccvi]

Originally posted by Batz
Should citizens ultimately influence and "effect" political descisions even when they maybe "uninformed"?

Should politicians be allowed to decide about laws when they have no experience (other than political) in the field the laws are about?

[Hortlund]

You are one sick diddly posting a story like that santa. Wayyy out of line. Let me know if you want to hear my version of the story of the seven somali immigrants and the knife murder of mr X...fun huh?

As for the rest. It is pretty obvious you dont know the first thing about modern warfare, especially not in built up areas without air support. Just quoting armor thickness or ammo loadout is pretty diddlying irrelevant if I put it that way.  You should go down to Grozny and tell the Russians how to defeat lightly armed defenders in built up areas.  

Bottom line: those Dutch soldiers had all the reasons in the world to fight, they chose not to, as a direct result thousands died.

[-tronski-]

Tronski, hehe, I see you mistook me for a liberal/pacifist because of what has gone before.

Not at all, most make the same mistake about myself. It just seemed very out of character.

Dowding - no TV footage of WW1. Back then, life was considered cheap.

Hardly, but there was of course no instant communication, and censorship was absolute. It could be argued that the soldiers and public was far more trusting in the leaders of the time, but of course the French army mutiny in 1917 does say volumes that the average soldier was aware of the slaughter and waste being asked of them.

But seriously, Dowding. On issues of national security, it simply isn't possible or feasible to divulge top secret information to the general public for them to decide. And only with that classified information can a balanced judgement be made.

It would seem the trust us, we know best argument just isn't buying public opinion. And if top secret information is the basis for the attack, shouldn't that be divulged anyhow to force the issue with the Iraqi's, and the  UN?

You forget, the public are the ones who will suffer the consequences of war, not the government.
Vietnam is an excellent example of how the moral of the homefront directly affected a failing war effort. Also I'm pretty sure most of the Australian diggers that would serve in Iraq aren't sons of the government.

Bottom line: those Dutch soldiers had all the reasons in the world to fight, they chose not to, as a direct result thousands died.

Bottom line: the dutch soldiers were there, and made the decision on that basis.
The dutch commander made an official request for air support on the 7th, 9th, and 10th July 1995, but was refused that support from the UN command over concerns for captured UN peacekeepers.
The serbs entered 11th July 1995.

Your assumption that the 200 dutch soldiers would fight a rear guard action into the town against 8-12,000 Serbs with approx 30 tanks plus artillery - whilst trying to protect the 30,000 muslims who had taken refuge in Srebrenica all for the glory of the UN, and the Netherlands is flawed let alone naive.

The Netherlands Institute of War Documentation's report on Srebrenica noted apart from a series of avoidable errors:

"Dutchbat (The Dutch military contingent) was dispatched:
on a mission with a very unclear mandate; to a zone described as a 'safe area' although there was no clear definition of what that meant; to keep the peace where there was no peace; without obtaining in-depth information from the Canadian predecessors in the enclave; without adequate training for this specific task in those specific circumstances; virtually without military and political intelligence work to gauge the political and military intentions of the warring parties; with misplaced confidence in the readiness to deploy air strikes if problems arose; and without any clear strategy for leaving."

 Tronsky

[Hortlund]

Whoa you are operating under alot of assumptions there tronski.

First, you are assuming that the Serbs would have attacked if the Dutch drew a line saying "we will shoot if you cross this line".

Then you are assuming that the Dutch soldiers would not get any airsupport even though they were fighting for their lives on the ground.

Then you are assuming that the Dutch would not have allowed the Moslems in Srebrenica to rearm themselves and participate in the fighting.

Then you are assuming that the serbs had all their troops in place to attack Srebrenica immideately. The Serb forces were spread out all over the area at the time the Dutch surrendered.

Then you are assuming that the Dutch should have taken a stand "for the glory of the UN and the Netherlands".

NO, they should have taken a stand, defending 30 000 refugees, starving women and children.

They should have taken a stand because they KNEW what the Serbs were doing. There were litterary hundreds of reports of massacres in that exact area by those exact serbs.

They should have taken a stand because that was the right thing to do.

Personally I seriously doubt the Serbs would have had the balls to go head to head with the UN over Srebrenica. No way would they dare. No...what they were doing was testing the limits, like Iraq is doing now. But instead of facing a line in the sand, they discovered that the Dutch crumbled.

The UN was reluctant to call in airstrikes on the serbs because they feared the serbs would execute UN hostages. Well, if there were 100-200 UN soldiers on the ground fighting for their lives trying to protect women and children from a bunch of butchering serbs, do you think that the priorities might change?

Have you any idea what the media coverage would be if there had been such a fight? Do you seriously think that the UN would have whimped "no we cant bomb because what happens then"? I dont think so.

No matter how you twist or turn the issue, the answer remains the same. It was a diddlying disgrace to hand those refugees over to the Serbs without a fight. And they knew what they were doing, and they knew what would happen to the civilians, that only makes it worse.

[StSanta]

The difference, Hortlund, is that they were there. You were at home in the comfort of your home. They were trained to fight a war - you've been through the conscript army at best.

The difference, Hortlund, is that my story is one that is pure fiction. One that never can happen. It is an attempt to get you to understand the situation and the consequences of your Hitleresque 'Defend Stalingrad to the last man.'. So I used your name in a fictious situation you'll never find yourself in - therefore I didn't think it'd be offensive. What other way to make you feel like you were there - I mean, you assume the same with your 'fight to the last man' stance.

YOU tell ME how to destroy 15 tanks using hand grenades and automatic rifles. You tell me how to fight back a force 20 times stronger, better equipped, supported by tanks, artillery and anti aircraft guns.

It seems you are the one lacking an understanding of street fighting. Urban warfare is attrition in action. When adequate support exist, the defenders will lose. They might kill more of the enemy than they lose the them, but if the enemy has twenty times more people, it doesn't matter.

So, you're hiding inside a two story building. A tank goes by. You throw down some explosives, it explodes and the tank loses a track. As you're trying to relocate, three other tanks open up on your house. The house collapses, killing all within that survived the initial blasts.

Now three of your troops are dead. one tank has lost its trakcs but is trainng its main gun at some other peace keepers in buildings. The rest roll on.

If you think they could have resisted the Serb forces, you're wrong. We know enough about urban warfare to know the outcome of a 20-1 fight where the opposition also has tanks and artillery.

The UN would have to mobilize their air forces to get anything done. One or two F-16's would not be enough to stop the onslaught. By the time the Un would have organized a strike, the UN soldiers would have been dead.

And these guys have been fighting a bloody civil war for years. Theyv've faced worse enemies, and they've noticed how incapable the UN is to stop them. They know the UN doesn't want a fight - the UN wants to keep the peace.

And the Dutch were told not to fire unless fired upon. If the tanks rolled into their compound, they could do nothing. They'd have to wait for the tank to fire. The Serbs coullda put 10 soldiers next to each Dutch peace keeper if they wanted.

No, the problem was lack of support for UN HQ.

And you're asking 200 men lose their lives in a futile attemot to protect refugees - many of whom would have been massacred during the attack on the Dutch base.

It's unrealistic to think that 200 lightly equipped peace keepers can keep back 12000 men supported by artillery and tanks. Hence my comment of your attitude being Hiteresuqe - am not suggesting you're like Hitler. Am saying that your stance is identical to the one Hitler adopted duirng latter part of WWII. I.e despite o chance of success; lose your lives to protect something.

[-tronski-]

First, you are assuming that the Serbs would have attacked if the Dutch drew a line saying "we will shoot if you cross this line".

They had already shelled the dutch base, because the knew of then current impotence of airpower. The serbs begun shelling civilian targets 5 days BEFORE Mladic entered Srebrenica.

Then you are assuming that the Dutch soldiers would not get any airsupport even though they were fighting for their lives on the ground.

They had their requests turned down previously immediately before capitulation, one of the major findings afterwards was Dutchbat's misplaced confidence in the availability of airpower.

Then you are assuming that the Dutch would not have allowed the Moslems in Srebrenica to rearm themselves and participate in the fighting.

This is a moot point, for the dutch had already disarmed the Bosnians.

You forget there is absolutely no evidence that the dutch knew of serbian intentions once the Bosnian's fell into captivity. After the 11th, most of the Bosnian soldiers attempted to break out to government lines where fewer than half made it. Most were ambushed and executed en route.

Then you are assuming that the serbs had all their troops in place to attack Srebrenica immideately. The Serb forces were spread out all over the area at the time the Dutch surrendered.

The Serbs had cut off and surrounded Srebrenica 2 years before the end. The final offensive's planning and prep began a month before, the speed of the offensive catching the UN intellgence services off guard. UN intelligence was still confident Mladic wouldn't attempt to take the enclave.

Then you are assuming that the Dutch should have taken a stand "for the glory of the UN and the Netherlands".

This is your assumption. Your ideal situation was their self sacrifice to buy time for the UN cavalry to ride in and save them.

Personally I seriously doubt the Serbs would have had the balls to go head to head with the UN over Srebrenica. No way would they dare. No...what they were doing was testing the limits, like Iraq is doing now. But instead of facing a line in the sand, they discovered that the Dutch crumbled.

The were already locking horns, and winning the test of wills against the UN.
Perhaps if the peacekeepers were Canadian, British or French the situation would have been different - but they weren't there. Those nations were far better equipped than the dutch, with their own airpower component.

The UN was reluctant to call in airstrikes on the serbs because they feared the serbs would execute UN hostages. Well, if there were 100-200 UN soldiers on the ground fighting for their lives trying to protect women and children from a bunch of butchering serbs, do you think that the priorities might change?

Have you any idea what the media coverage would be if there had been such a fight? Do you seriously think that the UN would have whimped "no we cant bomb because what happens then"? I dont think so.

The UN didn't allow airstrikes when the enclave was being shelled including the dutch base.  
Your missplaced confidence in airpower is as bad as Dutchbats. Nato's experience in Kosovo showed that airpower cannot alone slow serbian assaults on a civilian populace.

The final outcome of the captured enclave did not come public till long after it fell.
The destruction of Dutchbat would've easily occured before the media could've influenced the UN commanders.

Whats more bad press to a belligerent army like Mladic's?  

Nothing

No matter how you twist or turn the issue, the answer remains the same. It was a diddlying disgrace to hand those refugees over to the Serbs without a fight. And they knew what they were doing, and they knew what would happen to the civilians, that only makes it worse.

There is no evidence that the Dutch knew of the impending fate of the enclave, nor is there any evidence that the dutch saw or deliberately assisted in the mass executions.

 Tronsky

[fffreeze220]

"Eight European leaders declared their solidarity with the United States in a statement published in newspapers across Europe Thursday. The joint statement is signed by leaders of the United Kingdom, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Denmark, Czech Republic, Hungary and Poland. Noticeably absent from the declaration are Germany and France. (Full story)

All of my Heros. Following a dumb man, and that is what Bush is, into a dumb and risky war.
This diddlying war will be nothing more then about the Oil and personal toejam between Bush and Saddam.
Bush is a puppy of his Father nothing more.
And this world police thing is getting lame and old.
Have ur war in Iraq i give a toejam if Germany supports u or not.

But all these Talks about if we europeans are ur friends or not is plain dumb.
Do friends agree all the time ??? NO. But it seems that only the country that goes into war with the US is their friend.
Any other country are PROBLEMS ( qoute from the dumb idiot, i fotgot the name he is so unimportend ) , wasnt it Bumsfeld err Rumsfeld.
I bet these guys doesnt even know where europe is.

And btw with what could the German Army help ???
50% of them can barely walk straight and hold a gun.
The rest has the locker full of beer and cant spell their name.

But stop.... dont u need thiose dumb guys ?
Yes wait i gonna write a lteer to our Kanzler and tell em he can waste this human material. And btw why do i complain. I want cheap OIL.

HORAY FOR THE IRAQ WAR. GO US GO

[Cabby44]

^

We know "where" Europe is.  It's somewhere to the Left of Russia, ain't it???  BTW, you could could get a much better perspective if you pulled your head out of Schroeder's ass.......

Quote:

" The Falklands was the defence of Crown territory "

Why is "Crown territory" thousands of miles from Great Britain???  Is it because you all "stole it fair and square"??


Cabby

[Dowding]

Another gem from the cabby camp.

Yeah we stole it. In the same way that the US stole the lands of the native Americans - absolutely no difference whatsoever.

How's the rabies shots coming along? I'm told they sting a little.

[fffreeze220]

lol I never had my head in his ugly arse. He is an idiot and i did not vote for him.

[ccvi]

Hi freeze!

Moving away from Bremen is a good idea, but going to Oldenburg probably not. The university is not in the south part but in the north part of the city, which is strongly influenced by Schroeder's party and even worse the greens