I'm looking for data on Merlin, DB601, and BMW801

[HoHun]

Hi Joe,

>Also, does anyone have data on time between overhauls for these engines?

I just found a remark in Joachim's book on Hermann Graf indicating that at Stalingrad, Graf's Me 109 quickly gathered more than 100 of hours of flight operation and therefore would have been long due for an engine overhaul according to Luftwaffe regulations.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[F4UDOA]

I have read that the Brit's went almost 2,000 hours without overhauling their F4U's. The same Brit pilot says the Marines used 500 hours as the overhaul time.

I will find and post the artical.

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by HoHun
Hi Joe,

>Also, does anyone have data on time between overhauls for these engines?

I just found a remark in Joachim's book on Hermann Graf indicating that at Stalingrad, Graf's Me 109 quickly gathered more than 100 of hours of flight operation and therefore would have been long due for an engine overhaul according to Luftwaffe regulations.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Henning do you have info on the TBOs of the various German aero engines? How about minor maintainance like sparkplug, oil changes?

[joeblogs]

Hey guys, we are getting some where here.

I found some numbers on American commercial engines in the 1930s-1940s that suggest overhaul times ranged from 250hr to 500+hrs.  But these engines were treated far more nicely than in the military.

As for sparg plugs I've heard they had to check them every 30 or so hours and change them around every 60 or so hours.  If you used WEP, you pretty much had to change them.

-Blogs

Originally posted by HoHun
Hi Joe,

>Also, does anyone have data on time between overhauls for these engines?

I just found a remark in Joachim's book on Hermann Graf indicating that at Stalingrad, Graf's Me 109 quickly gathered more than 100 of hours of flight operation and therefore would have been long due for an engine overhaul according to Luftwaffe regulations.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[HoHun]

Hi Milo,

>Henning do you have info on the TBOs of the various German aero engines?

Only what I've already posted, for some reason even von Gersdorff et al. don't go into much detail there.

>How about minor maintainance like sparkplug, oil changes?

According to von Gersdorff, spark plug life was down to 15 - 30 hours if MW50 was used. No other adverse effects were to be expected as long as MW50 wasn't used for longer than 10 min continously.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[Angus]

I'll drop you a little candy here, from my precious time, drinking coffee with Gunther Rall.
He spent some time as an instructor flying captured allied aircraft against his student. His comment was that the allied engines (he mentioned the Merlin particularly) were of much better quality than the German Engines. (Mentioned DB). He said that after only 90 hours the DB had a very "loose" prop, indicating a worn and untight engine, while a captured mustang with hundreds of hours on the clock showed no sign of engine fatique.
Probably a material problem, - Germans getting short of high quality alloys.

[MiloMorai]

Probably more to do with manufacturing quality than the lack of the proper metals. "Slave" labour has no incentive to put our quality work.

[VO101_Isegrim]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
Probably more to do with manufacturing quality than the lack of the proper metals. "Slave" labour has no incentive to put our quality work.

I have seen no single source that would suggest the detoriation of quality of late war German engines... BTW, suggesting that "slave labour" was used in engine manufacture, or in high qulaity industry in general is a sign of gross ignorance or generalisation. Slave workers WERE NOT USED in aircraft industry. They didn`t have the skill. Tell me how could an analphapbetic ukrainian "slave workewr" assemble a state-of-the-art aircraft engine, if he probably haven`t evwen seen a car in his life? Decent works on the subject of ww2 econimics, like those of Milward`s for example, make it very clear that "slave" labour was used at place where only physical attributes were required: extraction of raw materials, ie. in mines and forests, or in the agriculture.

Another myth thrown in was that TBO time has anythig to with reliability.. one who state such thing have no idea what TBO time is. It`s just a description of the manufacturer that tells at which time intervals the engine should be taken apart and checked if there`s signs of wear... if not, put it back together and put it again back to the aircraft.

Thus low MTO does not corresponds with "low reliability" at all... all it corresponds is how often the engine should be checked of being worn out. HoHun has already pointed out the main reason for decreased TBO... MW-50 had corrosive effect, and it killed spark plugs earlier. The engine has to be checked more often for signs of wear. When the Allies started using 150 grade fuels, they as well experienced quickly fouling spark plugs, for example Mustangs had to change their`s after 7-8 hours of operation. Again it has nothign to do with "quality". Higher boosts, the use of water injection wore down engine more quickly.

[VO101_Isegrim]

Originally posted by HoHun
H

In combat operations, I've read pilots' comments about the Allision V-1710 in the Pacific theatre (P-39 and P-40) reaching times of about 100 hours. This might have been a substandard value as the poor performance of these types apparently lead to the pilots using military power continuously.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Hi HoHun!

I have read memoirs of Soviet fighter pilot who have flown P-39 Hur, P-40 undere L-L, as well as other Soviet fighters. He made an interesting comment on the V-1710 tbo time.. he said that they needed to change the engine in the aircraft as soon as small  bits of metal appeared in the oil, indicating that the engine was being worn out. He said that this was done after 50 hours of operation in avarage...

BTW, one must also remember that those TBO figures that the manufacturers give and those that are possible on the field is greatly different. The reason is simply, the manufacturer gives it`s data for ideal conditions (i.e. engien not allowed to overheat, throttle is managed gently), and those are very different of what a pilot can do to his aircraft in combat... he pushes the throttle right open, then cuts it back not to overshoot, then right open again... this isn`t good for the engine. In "Spitfires, Thunderbolts and warm beer" a seasoned Jug pilot tells that they changed the P-47`s radial after every 80 hours for the reasons mentioned.. Also, in "Great book of WW2 Fighters" the article about P-51 mentions that altough the V-1650-7 Merlins`s TBO was given as over 200 hours, it was rarely met under operational conditions.

[Angus]

A "loose" prop as a Pilot's simple way of measuring engine wear means what then?
A German Fighter Pilot's complain about their eingines wearing out faster than the allied engines means what then?
Would seem to me that the sleeves/piston rings would be wearing too fast, - and that would also effect the sparks. Those wearing too fast would be an alloy-related/chemical issue.
Slave labour? No idea. Never heard that the Germans used slave labour in the Hi-Tech sector, however all over the place elsewhere. But the Japanese used forced labour in aviation industry I belive.

[niklas]

Originally posted by VO101_Isegrim
I have seen no single source that would suggest the detoriation of quality of late war German engines... BTW, suggesting that "slave labour" was used in engine manufacture, or in high qulaity industry in general is a sign of gross ignorance or generalisation. Slave workers WERE NOT USED in aircraft industry. They didn`t have the skill. Tell me how could an analphapbetic ukrainian "slave workewr" assemble a state-of-the-art aircraft engine, if he probably haven`t evwen seen a car in his life?  

What makes you think that someone of ukraine is automatically  non-skilled, uneducated, analphapbetic ??

Obviously you don´t know anything about slavery work during ww2 in germany. Zwangsarbeiter (forced worker) were used in nearly all industrial processes. Also at Daimler Benz. For example i read that the daimler engine manufactoring plant in Genshagen/Ludwigsfelde was supplied with Zwangsarbeiter.
It doesn´t take much skill to use a machine in a serial manufactoring process btw.  
Zwangsarbeiter in high-technology area? Inform yourself who mounted the V2 in the tunnels of Dora together... Of course there was a risk for sabotage. Afaik Himmler ordered to let terror rule there to minimize sabotage. As a consequence it was sufficient for a Zwangsarbeiter to let a tool drop on the floor to be hanged up immediatly...

niklas

[Kevin14]

Ahh, stop reviving this thread

[Angus]

Why so?
Niklas had a nice point there.
Information is always good.
Now, - some more engine stuff?

[VO101_Isegrim]

Originally posted by niklas
What makes you think that someone of ukraine is automatically  non-skilled, uneducated, analphapbetic ??

The simply statisctics that show about 50% illitarate rate in the Red Army is very telling, Niklas. BTW, all I say

Originally posted by niklas

Obviously you don´t know anything about slavery work during ww2 in germany.

On the contrary I think I read a bit more about that than you.

Originally posted by niklas

Zwangsarbeiter (forced worker) were used in nearly all industrial processes.

Of course it was that way, if you say so, Niklas... soueces, maybe..? First for you, Zwangsarbeiter DOES NOT eqaul slave labour. May I have to remind you to the fact, with which you are most obviously very familiar with, that MANY French workers went to Germany after 1940 to work as foreign workers, just like Turks do today? They were not slaves, they volunteered for that, as there was litte work in France. They were not slave workers, they had contract, they had payment of a normal worker, they had a treatmant of a normal worker...

Of course you are totally familiar with these facts, but it`s so much nicer to describe it all as "slave labour"... read, read more.
Read Milward or other authors who don`t want to find excuses for charges of "collaboration". I understand that in france everybody suddenly become either a former slave worker or "partisan" after WW2... some were really that, others just invented great/horrible stories to escape being accused with collaboration, and burned at the stake as a witch.

Originally posted by niklas

Also at Daimler Benz. For example i read that the daimler engine manufactoring plant in Genshagen/Ludwigsfelde was supplied
with Zwangsarbeiter.

If you have read, that may I ask you to list the source, the jobs these "slave" labourers did, and how many were there compared to "normal" workers.  I sense a gross exagrevation here...

Originally posted by niklas

It doesn´t take much skill to use a machine in a serial manufactoring process btw.  

This was supposed to be a joke, right? Not  much skill requried to produce items that require one tenth of milimater precision!  I bet you have never anywhere near of an engine factory...

 

Originally posted by niklas

Zwangsarbeiter in high-technology area? Inform yourself who mounted the V2 in the tunnels of Dora together... Of course there was a risk for sabotage.

You swiched topic here. We were talking about high tech engine industry, not rockets...V-2 engines were not high tech items, they were to be used once only, and a rocket engine does not requiring any kind of strict precision as for required for a piston engine. It`s way simplier, as it has very few moving parts, save for some valves.

BTW, unlike you try to suggest, forced labour was mainly used there to carve out the tunnel (=physical work requiring no special skill), not to actually assamble the rockets themselves. You obviosuly mix up different things to arrive at a "truth" that fits you liking.

Originally posted by niklas
 Afaik Himmler ordered to let terror rule there to minimize sabotage. As a consequence it was sufficient for a Zwangsarbeiter to let a tool drop on the floor to be hanged up immediatly...
niklas [/B]

Colouful story with little connection to reality. If they would kill a worker every time he would drop a tool, they wouldn`t have any left in a week... no denial of conditions were very harsh, but including some of these obviously false and made up stories to "prove" your point (which seem to be that you want to prove something that was disproved by authors of books delaing with WW2 economy, i.e. EVERYTHING that was produced in Germany during WW2 was built by "slaves".) just ruins your credibility.

Try to have a more objective view on that, will you?

[joeblogs]

Does anyone have dates of 100 hour test and production runs for UK, Russian, German, and Japanese piston engines?

-blogs