bounder: But to keep up your spirit of robust debate... I am not trying to be offencive, honestly. I hope to direct people to read some books, not make anyone feel bad. I am a bit frustrated since the knowlege is readily available in bookstores and issue seems to provoke a lot of interest but people prefer to write rather than read what really smart people thought on the issue.
Religion is a form of social control. It is a homogenizing influence that demands adherence to a doctrine. I'm not saying it is bad, there are many positives, but it is a form of social control. This is a common fallacy fist pertetuated by positivists of Ecole Polytechnique - they were too ignorant and closeminded to imagine that a cmplex system could spontaneously evolve exactly through benefitting the population.
They assumed that since religion looked reasonable, it was intentionally creared by humans - just like people believe that since human body works in a reasonable manner it must have been designed. Both statements are false.
Religion and morals and customs evolved. Yes, some humans-despots intentionally tried to use/subvert religion to control masses -
more often atheists than not. Where they succeeded, sociery deteriorated and retarded. Where it failed, it flourished.
Yes, some religons are arguably (state involvement more plausible) causes of their civilisations downfall. The christianity and protestant christianity were foundations of western civilisation and all it's values.
A religious person, in the Christian tradition has only one loyalty, not two. And you know who that loyalty is to, don't you? Not to the current despot on the throne, that's for sure.
And I bet they were religious too Scientologists, Ayn Rand and Raelians have nothing to do with it. People tend to believe irrational things. Religion is an effect, not a cause.
you should always let the conquered people keep their religion, and even go so far as to co-opt it... Likewise it's best to let them keep the evolution (or God) created biology rather than trying to change their shape. So what? People use what they can. Our bodies evolved - we use them. religion revolved - we use it. Customs, tastes and facions evolve - we use those too.
StSanta: Somewhat. After all individuality and equality was very much alive in Scandinavia before Christianity got here. Cry me a river about poor helpless vikings...
Scandinavians - Norse were the example of the most successfull spread in history. Not only did they create a trading empire spanning Europe and reaching (and in times threateneing) Konstantinople, they establised settlements everywhere (founded first major russian cities by the way), became part of many populations - in many cases as rulers/nobility (russia, normans->france->england, etc.). They assimilated and most europeans now are their descendants but that does not mean they disappeared.
The better question would be not how christianity screwed up poor norse but how norse values affected christianity everwhere in Europe and Russia.
As to why I don't hold organized religion so highly:
it's a prefabricated worldview.... I could give you many examples how human body is ridiculously arranged - optical nerves being routed in front of light-sensors, for example. The somewhat irrational construction of human body as well as the customs/believes known as religion are due exactly to the fact that they evolved spontaneously rather than were intentionally designed.
Humans live because our bodies allow us to do so. Human western society exists the way it does becasue underlying customs enabled it to do so. Could there be better arrangements - theoretically possible. Should we at least realise why the existing system works before screwing up with it?
I do not need religion in order to have a family, children, avoid drugs/alcohol and not hurt people. The majority of some populations certainly do at least on some counts. Like divorce rate and reproduction rate.
Humanity survived and developed through religion befrore noticeable fraction of it switched to scientific view/method. That fraction is still minority. Is it safe to remove the however irratinal scaffolding holding the rest together before substitute is available? I do not think so. Communist ideology certainly failed as a replacement.
lazs2: any organization that feels that they know what is best for me and is large enough to have an influence in my life That view is contrary to most christian teachings. The God gave people free will, ability to feel temptration and to sin in order for people to choose between good and evil. If you prevent people from temptation, you deny them free will and an opportunity to choose. Some religions/sects are not strong on personal freedom choice but christianity is better in that respect - which is why christian world developed to modernity, not the other religions.
miko
