Author Topic: The price for space  (Read 1145 times)

Offline Hangtime

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The price for space
« on: February 02, 2003, 11:12:23 PM »
Can you build a plane? Say a Piper Cub. Tube steel, welded, cables and bellcranks, cloth covering, engine, tanks, wiring.. etc.

Probably. If somebody had the main components kickin around it would be a snap. I mean, an aircraft engine is not something most of us can fabricate outta the garage, so lets assume you'll need some skilled infrastuture to feed you need for machined parts.

Could you build it and fly it.. without knowing the physics?

Doubtful. But all those niggling little details of the physics and such could be cured with a lil education and some help from the infrastructure.

Ok.. so we can build a plane. Maybe even fly it.

Can you build a space shuttle?

Nope.

Ok, can your town, with it's diverse population and massive skill sets build a space shuttle?

Nope.

Hmmm... can your state build a shuttle?

Nope. Not without a whole lotta specilzed expensive help from someplace else..

The Point?

It takes just about all the industrial and technical expertiese possesed by this nation to loft a Shuttle.. and Bush's 500 million dollar increase for the space program wouldn't pay for one freakin launch cycle.

The Space Progam is about the only truly decent thing this nation has accomplished on a world scale in the last 50 years. Be a shame to let it peter out.. but to get the program re-funded on a scale necessary to develop a new space plane will take a nation of taxpayers demanding that it happen.

Write your congressman.. get the ball rolling. The politicans won't act unless we push.

Push hard.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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The price for space
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2003, 11:17:26 PM »
We need some some scrappy commies to fight it out with again, I'm hoping China is the ticket as they are close to a manned flight.

Offline Animal

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The price for space
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2003, 02:46:12 AM »
The value of one B-2 Spirit and its yearly manteinance cost would be a godsend to NASA.

But we have a fleet of B-2's and NASA is hanging on a thread.

I really hope China is serious about a manned flight to Mars. That alone could jumpstart the Space Program.
What a sad state of affairs.

Offline Dowding

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The price for space
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2003, 03:50:30 AM »
The last thing we need is two super-powers trying to achieve the same thing, but independently. It would be a complete waste of effort and resources.

It's now time to join forces and cooperate.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline CyranoAH

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The price for space
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2003, 04:07:14 AM »
The X-33 project was denied funds in 2001. How about injecting some cash there?



The ESA was collaborating as well...

Daniel

Offline CyranoAH

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The price for space
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2003, 04:11:00 AM »
Some information:

X-33 was the sub-scale prototype version of the Single Stage to Orbit Venture Star. It was wedge shaped X-33. It was developed jointly between NASA and Lockheed Martin Skunk Works of Palmdale, California. X-33 was cancelled in 2001.



The X-33 was designed to take off vertically like a rocket, reaching an altitude of up to 60 miles and speeds faster than Mach 13 (13 times the speed of sound), and landing horizontally like an airplane. The X-33 was to be launched at Edwards Air Force Base, Edwards, California.

The X-33 design was chosen in the X-33 competion in 1986. The competitors were the DC-X Vertical take-off and Vertical landing vehicle and Rockwell X-33. Lockheed Martin's version won the competion. In hindsight, perhaps two competing vehicles should have been built.

Specifications:

Length  69 ft
Width  77 ft
Take-off weight  285,000 lbs
Fuel  LH2/LO2
 Fuel weight  210,000 lbs
Main Propulsion  (2) J-2S Linear Aerospikes
Take-off Thrust  410,000 lbs
Maximum Speed   Mach 13+  

The X-33s was to use:

Linear aerospike rocket engines : The novel, highly efficient design had undergone numerous component-level tests. The first aerospike test engine had completed 14 planned hot fire tests. It accumulated more than 1,460 seconds of total operating time, including a demonstration of the ability to vary the thrust from top to bottom that will be used to steer the X-33. This engine was developed at a fraction of the cost of normal standard efforts.



Thermal Protection System (TPS) certification: The rugged, metallic thermal-protection system panels designed for the X-33 had passed an intensive test series that included sessions in high-speed, high-temperature tests in laboratories, wind tunnels and NASA research aircraft to duplicate flight conditions. Industry partner BF Goodrich had delivered more than 95 percent of the X-33's TPS panels. NASA expected the panels could reduce maintenance time and costs associated with more fragile thermal tile systems. The panels also made up the lower surfaces of the rocket plane's aerodynamic structural shell, resulting in significant weight savings over traditional thermal systems while being more durable and waterproof.



Internal Structures: Lightweight graphite composite trusses and supports that serve as the backbone of the X-33's aeroshell have been assembled. They also support the three large propellant tanks that comprise most of its interior. The X-33 is pioneering extensive use of composite materials for RLVs.



Components: The X-33 was based on a lifting body shape. The lightweight components and fuel tanks were built to conform to the vehicle's outer shape.


X-33 Status

Construction of the X-33 was more than 85 percent complete, with the liquid oxygen tank, avionics bay, flight umbilicals, reaction control system thruster controller and landing gear installed. However, the X-33 was cancelled in 2001.

Offline miko2d

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Re: The price for space
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2003, 10:00:26 AM »
Hangtime: It takes just about all the industrial and technical expertiese possesed by this nation to loft a Shuttle.. and Bush's 500 million dollar increase for the space program wouldn't pay for one freakin launch cycle.

 So maybe we should just wait untill the technology advances to that level where it's more feasable. There was a time when the resources of state were needed to build a Piper Cub. I bet a moon mission would have been much cheaper and safer now than in 1960 - with all the deveoplments in computers and materials.

 miko

Offline Ripsnort

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The price for space
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2003, 10:03:18 AM »
Here's the link to write your congressperson or senator:

Offline AKIron

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Re: Re: The price for space
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2003, 10:14:35 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
I bet a moon mission would have been much cheaper and safer now than in 1960 - with all the deveoplments in computers and materials.

 miko



Miko, perhaps there would not have been the advancement in "computers and materials" we enjoy today if not for the space program since the '60s.
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline Ripsnort

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Re: Re: Re: The price for space
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2003, 10:16:35 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKIron
Miko, perhaps there would not have been the advancement in "computers and materials" we enjoy today if not for the space program since the '60s.


Just walk into your kitchen, 60% of the technology in ones kitchen can be traced back to some sort of rocket or space technology...

digging for that article that shows you why...

Offline Rude

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The price for space
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2003, 11:01:22 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding
The last thing we need is two super-powers trying to achieve the same thing, but independently. It would be a complete waste of effort and resources.

It's now time to join forces and cooperate.


Piss on that

Offline miko2d

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Re: Re: Re: The price for space
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2003, 11:13:47 AM »
AKIron: Miko, perhaps there would not have been the advancement in "computers and materials" we enjoy today if not for the space program since the '60s.

 Oh, yes - we all know that the government is the best source for new ideas and research. Look how much advancements they have in Russia and North Korea! :rolleyes:
 There was  plenty of state research in communist countries - and they had the advantage that most capable people went into research since there were not business or commertial opportunities to distract them.

 Perhaps we would have more advancement if state was not in the business of science. A huge boom in research and exploitation of new ideas occured in US when the congress released patents produced on government contracs back to the research labs, mostly in colleges, that created them. Hundreds of bright scientists immediately set up commertial ventures to exploit the breakthroughs on which the government was sitting for years without any benefit.

 If the state materials research was so good, why would not government just make a huge project out of it rather than go the roundabout route of moon expedition?
 It's the same as "war and devastation" is beneficial to economy because we can build newer factories in place of the obsolete ones. If an enemy bombings are so great, certainly we could bomb our own installations even better.

 The indispencability of government in research is just a socialist propaganda. We are told what we owe to the government but not often reminded what is done besides the government (most of the research) and even less what never happened because of the resources diverted by the government.

 miko

Offline AKIron

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The price for space
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2003, 11:22:34 AM »
Miko, don't give yourself a stroke. ;)   I thought you were saying we should have waited on the moon landing until the technology was sufficiently advanced to make it safer and more of a sure thing. I was only saying that if we had done that the progress we have made might not exist today.

Nowhere did I indicate that only government should be allowed to pioneer space travel. In fact, commercial industry does participate both in cooperation with the government and on their own. It isn't like the US government is suppressing inovation by controlling and repressing private industry in this area.
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline Dowding

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The price for space
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2003, 11:29:48 AM »
Quote
Piss on that


Tell me, does such breath-taking wisdom come with age?

Stand aside, cooperation between the various agencies is already happening.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Frogm4n

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The price for space
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2003, 11:38:42 AM »
advance's in science today only come from government funded research labs. Corporations only care about the bottom line not the advacement of the human race. if left up to them we would still be in the 19th century slaves to the factorys we work in.
hell the internet was developed by the army first. The largest from of socialism in this country btw.