The Parity of turning ability

[Toad]

Gatt,

Are they based on in-game performance or is it RL based?

[gatt]

AFAIK, they are based on in-game performances. I've e-mailed Badboy some times ago and he kindly sent me the diagrams about 109F and SpitV performances. Would be great to have the same data and analysis for AH a/c.

[F4UDOA]

Andy,

Nice diagram. I have a similer e-mail friend who often post on these boards who has done an excel spreadsheet to calculate
1.Prop effic.
2.Climb and best angle of climb
3.Accelleration
4.Max sustained turn rate
5.Cdi, induced drag
6.Cdo, Zero lift drag
7.Cd, total drag
8.Top Speed

This info depends on
1.Aspect ratio
2.Weight
3.HP
4.Air density at alt.
5.Wing Area
6.Prop diameter
7.Stall speed
It is an excellent piece of work. Based on this the Max sustained turn is at a much higher speed than your friends graph. I believe that it is too low because even though your friend is close on the 1g stall of a P-51 in the clean condition he is off on the 3G turn being at less than 150MPH. The Mustangs 3G stall based on the 1g stall is 181.86MPH or 105MPH*1.73(The square of the G factor). The 105MPH stall is from the P-51 Flight manual. In any case the graph is beautiful. I will get my Physics tutor to check the thread and give his two cents.

Maveric,

Thanks for the Link. I will read it tonight.
I would never turn it into a flame war, it's not my style

Thanks
F4UDOA

[Andy Bush]

F4UDOA

Glad you liked the graph. I did not intend that it be used as an example of specific performance values, but instead as an example of how energy values can be displayed in a manner that a pilot can use.

With regard to the actual graph numbers versus your numbers...in my P-51 handbook, the stall speeds are given in IAS. This chart is TAS. That may well account for the difference.

The HTC folks must have used some baseline for their performance programming. I'd like to see a set of these charts built with those specs in mind.

Andy

[Vulcan]

Hmmmm...

you guys are worse than the Virtual Airshow freaks.

GO HAVE SOME SEX GUYS!!! Don't matter what with... sheep - goats- small furry rodents - fatty's mom... JUST DO IT.


-vlkn- in

[Badboy]

Hi,

I would like to address the points made by F4UDOA.


 

Originally posted by F4UDOA:
Andy,

It is an excellent piece of work. Based on this the Max sustained turn is at a much higher speed than your friends graph. I believe that it is too low because even though your friend is close on the 1g stall of a P-51 in the clean condition he is off on the 3G turn being at less than 150MPH. The Mustangs 3G stall based on the 1g stall is 181.86MPH or 105MPH*1.73(The square of the G factor). The 105MPH stall is from the P-51 Flight manual. In any case the graph is beautiful. I will get my Physics tutor to check the thread and give his two cents.

F4UDOA

The diagram posted was for the P-51D as modelled in Air Warrior. What it shows, is exactly what happens in that simulation, as such it is valuable to the good folk who fly that sim'. However, while it is a 100% faithful indication of what happens in that simulation, in that configuration, the information is non-transferable. It can't be used for other simulations, or for the real world aircraft, although it could be with some adjustments. So, the lift curve used to generate that diagram doesn't reflect the lift curve of the real P-51D it matches the curve used to model the P-51D in Air Warrior. Also, the prop efficiency curves don't match those of the real P-51, and the engine power curves don't match either. For example, the value of Clmax reflected in the Air Warrior simulation (that is the highest point on their lift curve) is 1.56, the value for the real P-51D is 1.89. I believe the difference is due to the fact that the guys at Kesmai probably used airfoil data, which is almost always somewhat less than the values realised by the complete aircraft in flight.

Regarding stall speeds, much care is needed when quoting specific values. For example, the weight of the P-51D could vary from a maximum take off weight close to 12,000lbs to as little as 7,300lbs when landing on fumes with no fuel and a hungry pilot. That results in a stall speed at sea level and standard atmospheric conditions ranging between 70kts (81mph) and 90kts (105mph) which probably explains why the P-51 flight manual quotes the high end value. Following that reasoning through yields 3g stall speeds ranging from 121kts (140mph) to 156kts (182mph)… The point is that the diagram posted is correct for the configuration it represents, just as your figures are also correct.

Hope that helps?

Badboy

[Badboy]

Hi Andy

 

Originally posted by Andy Bush:
F4UDOA

The HTC folks must have used some baseline for their performance programming. I'd like to see a set of these charts built with those specs in mind.

Andy

Perhaps it's time I did an Energy Maneuverability analysis for the aircraft in AH, if only there was a big enough following to justify a strategy guide type publication <g>.

Badboy

[Yosus]

"Perhaps it's time I did an Energy Maneuverability analysis for the aircraft in AH, if only there was a big enough following to justify a strategy guide type publication <g>."

What a great idea Badboy! And Andy can write the lessons ...
I'm following!!

Andy, thanks for the commentary, I find your explanation 'sticks' in my head better than reading graphs, at which I'm lousy.

BTW, great thread F4UDOA, despite that I only understand a fraction of what I read on this type of thread.

Cheers
Yosus

------------------
'One day, flight simulation will be so realistic, that you'll need to wear brown corduroy'
Phoenix Squadron.

[Westy]

 Badz, I feel you would find a larger, more enthusiastic audience eager for your outstanding work here. Nothing wrong with the AW community mind you but there is less appreciation for your PDF files and charts 'over there' than they are due. Talk of WWII aircraft and aeronautics is scant and rare at best to be honest.

 -Westy

(Was there ever a consensus reached on the flaming issue of boy scouts and UFO's?    )

[Andy Bush]

Yosus

What a great idea!

In fact, Badboy and I have been writing partners for some time now. We've tried a thousand ways to get a 'how to' book for flight sims written but have yet to find a commercially successful means. No publisher to date wants any part of such a book.

Until then, Leon and I will continue to provide whatever we can here on the forums and web sites such as SimHQ.

BTW...the fourth article in my BnZ series is just about done. I use AH for many of the illustrations. This final BnZ article will suggest a way of flying a 2v1 in our sims and will cover formations, attack geometry and communication techniques.

Andy

[F4UDOA]

BadBoy,

I didn't realize that the chart was based on AW performance numbers until I reviewed the thread. But I do think the Max Cl of the P-51 is a little high at 1.89. I learned from Wells on these boards that most Max Cl of WW2 fighters fall between 1.4 and 1.5 with no flaps. It turn out to be true with few exceptions. If you reference the NACA report on Lift Coefficients you can find Cl of most major fighter types with and without flaps.
Here is the NACA report Link.
 http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1945/naca-report-829/
Turns out 1.89 is 50degree flap deflection on P-51. 1.88 is 50degree flap on F4U which was reduced from 2.33 after an addition of a spoiler strip on the port wing to reduce an unsymetrical stall. Hope this is helpfull.
BTW, any new charts or graphs related to actual flight numbers or AH would be appreciated. Great work!

Later F4UDOA

[Citabria]

I've been on both sides of turning parity and seen actual proof that each plane is different.

try to out turn an fw190 in the lightest of p47s and you will die a fiery death in a few turns.

turn a P-38 with a spit9 and you can hang on if your lucky for a while but try it in a p38 vs a spit 5 and they will turn rings around you.

turn a p51 or 109g10 in a flat turn vs an f4u and the f4u will tear you up.


ok done rambling

[F4UDOA]

Citiabria,

I don't disagree about any of what you have said. Funny thing that I fly the F4U so much that it took me a while to make this observation. No matter what A/C is in front of me they cannot escape by means of a flat turn at sea level. I will eventually get into firing position and blast them. I have not tried the Zero or Spit V in this regard because I thought it would be suicide so I chose not to try. Then I also noticed no matter what A/C was behind me that I could not escape by means of flat turning at sea level. Even with a P-47D30 on my tail(I have this filmed) I could not gain even 1/2 turn until he killed me. I think the reality is that there is such a great parity amoung turning performances of A/C that whom ever is on the offensive will eventually come into firing position unless the other pilot just plain makes a horrible mistake or reverses direction. Even when fighting the
P-47D30 I watched as he stalled and did a semi roll in the opposite direction before regaining control and continuing to gain on me while turning in my F4U low fuel and 20degree's of flap at the edge of a stall.
Pyro made the statement that he would review turning abilities for version 1.04. I think it is odd that the latest A/C modeled, P-47 and FW190A5 seem to turn as well as the best of AH. These are two A/C that were known to have poor turn radius and high stall speeds. I wonder if they were modeled differently than the previous models. Until 1.04 I will be patient. It is limited however to the type of ACM you can employ and expect to live.

Thanks
F4UDOA

[wells]

The attacker almost always has a speed advantage, being able to close into firing range.  Alot of the time, that advantage, even if it's only 20 mph can make up any discrepency in the rate of turn.  With the low G tolerance, the turning 'envelope' is even lower than in some other sims, such as Warbirds, so it's hard to really use a speed advantage for the purpose of gaining angles.  Just increasing the G tolerance to 7 or so would make up for alot, methinks.

[Citabria]

f4udoa

your turning to soon and the attacker is getting a snapshot. if you get them close enough on your 6 w/o getting killed you can pull a max G turn and keep turning as fast as you can and you will out turn them and bleed their e to nothing if they follow you.

the trick is getting in the same plane as the enemy because if they go vertical like they can yoyo down and kill you easy


next time you see me online we go to ta and see if f4u can out turn p47 and how quickly it will