Author Topic: Why in your opinion was the  (Read 1783 times)

Offline Batz

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Why in your opinion was the
« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2003, 04:06:15 PM »
We dont have any plane thats the "historical match" for the p38l. that plane saw service in '44. (except the d9 or maybe the g10)What planes are you talking about are the "historical match up" with p38l?

The dates for the "109s and 190s" we have in ah matter when you say "historic match ups". The p38l in every event I have been in and in every ct set up is a sub for an early version of the p38.

So back to my question....

Quote
The P-38L in AH makes a fine escort fighter I have found in historical match ups.


What "historical match ups" ? p38l vrs the ah g6?

Quote
As for the dates of certain 109s and 190s, ya ok, so what? I didnt comment on it. I already stated the LW a/c were a match in performance.


No, heres what you said

Quote
The P-38L in AH makes a fine escort fighter I have found in historical match ups.


Anway back on topic the p38 wasnt a "failure" there were just planes better suited for the job. We need some earlier versions of the p38 in ah especially with the AH2:ToD coming. The pto was better suited for the p38.

Offline Squire

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Why in your opinion was the
« Reply #31 on: February 06, 2003, 04:15:33 PM »
What the heck are you talking about?

What do you mean "there is no historic match up for the P-38L"?

Piston engined fighters only:

109G-6
109G-10
190A-8
190F-8
190D-9


N1K2
Ki-61
A6M5 (sad but true, blame the IJN)


I do find it a fine escort fighter. If you dont, well, then I guess we just have to differ.

As for the P-38L being a substitute for an earlier version, well, you are just plain wrong.  1944-5 Phillipines we have done, and the P-38L was there, as well as any France/Germany mid 44-1945 setup, its not "subbing" for anything other than itself.

As for your last two sentences, I agree completely. Feeling ok today?, you seem in a spritely mood :)
« Last Edit: February 06, 2003, 04:36:18 PM by Squire »
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Why in your opinion was the
« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2003, 04:59:09 PM »
The British ordered their Lightnings without "handed" engines and counter rotating props. This caused several problems with flight characteristics. Further, the U.S. forbid Lockheed to sell Lightnings to the British with turbochargers. That killed performance at altitudes. Engineers at Lockheed told the sales staff to turn down the invitation to bid for the contract with the RAF because of the specifications and the turbochargers. However, the U.S. government in fact actually pressured Lockheed to sell P-38s (then called the Atlanta by Lockheed) to the British, and sales and management of Lockheed, eager to sell anything, willingly followed the desires of the government. The British called the P-38 "Lightning", by the way.

Regarding Spit vs. Lightning mock combat there were TWO incidents and not one.  

Tony Levier, Lockheed chief TEST pilot, challenged and British COMBAT pilot. They merged co alt, and the experienced British combat pilot handed Levier his ass. Test pilots only knew what could be done with the plane, not how to fight with it. Levier was there for TWO reasons. The first was to teach the poorly trained pilots how to fly on one engine. The second was to find out what the combat pilots thought the P-38 needed.

John Lowell challenged a British ace to a mock duel, and they merged co alt and co E at 5K. Lowell proceeded to get on the British pilot's tail and could not be shaken, he handed the British pilot his ass, by no small margin. Eventually, the British pilot did a 45 degree Split S and ran like Hell, Lowell follwed, reportedly almost hitting the ground, and broke off as the British pilot ran. There were dozens of witnesses.

Regarding Galland and his opinion of the P-38, John Lowell handed Galland HIS bellybutton too. And Galland engaged with altitude and speed advantages. Read the account in "Top Gun", by CMH winner General Joe Foss. Galland acknowledged the event in front of dozens of witnesses.

Lawrence Blumer shot down 6 German planes in a span of under 15 minutes, his kills are believed to include German ace Rudi Dassau (sp?). Blumer and his unit were also lower and slower than their opponents.

No one ever claimed there was any titanium in P-38s, but they did have a massive stainless steel spar, and were noted for their ability to withstand collisions with other planes and with telephone poles etc.

Yes, a few P-38L-5-Lo Lightnings were deployed to Europe.

The truth is that many missions in the Pacific included altitudes in excess of 25,000 feet in their profile. It's no warmer at 25-30K over Rabaul, than it is at 25-30K over Bremen.

The Merlin would not have been an improvement for the P-38, in fact, high altitude performance would have been significantly REDUCED. Further, the early Merlin P-51 was no more reliable than the Allison in the P-38. And at least you had two of them. Merlins were notorious for cracking heads and dumping their coolant. If the head cracks on a Merlin in a P-51, the engine will sieze within about 5 minutes in most cases. They were also notorious for fouling plugs.

The P-38s overall record in Europe, even with the 8th AF, was 4 to 6 German planes destroyed for every Lightning lost. Hardly a failure.

The biggest problem for the P-38 in Europe, aside from poor pilot training, was the general staff of the 8th AF. The 8th AF as a whole was less than stellar until after Doolittle took over from Spatz, after Spatz had already replaced another poor performer, whose name escapes me. Doolittle's biggest complaint with the P-38 was its need for more maintenance than the P-47 and P-51, and the fact that the Pacific theatre was getting so many P-38s that there were not enough for the 8th AF to get enough. This was because the War Production Board had assigned Lockheed to handle second source production and development of the B-17. Then they assigned Consolidated Vultee to second source production of the P-38. The logic behind this decision is obviously flawed. There was no valid reason to cut Lockheed's capacity to produce P-38s, and then ask a company geared towards the production of bombers and flying boats to produce the most complex fighter of the era. Unfortunately, the combination of poor leadership and management by the 8th AF, the poor training of pilots, and the lack of available P-38s reduced the effectiveness of the P-38 in Europe.

The USAAF and the War Production Board often forced substandard parts on Lockheed and other companies, and also denied them the opportunity to make improvements. Early on, the WPB and the USAAF provided the wrong turbochargers for the P-38. Later, when it was proven that the Hamilton Standard props offered significant performance and reliability gains on the P-38, along with a reduction in maintnenace needs, the WPB refused to allow Lockheed to use them. Further, the poor performance of Consolidated Vultee as a second source for the P-38 (they only produced 113), prevented Lockheed from shutting down production for short periods, and hence running changes could not be made. The P-38 was in such high demand, the WPB would not allow Lockheed to stop production even for a few days.

The later versions of the P-38 (from J-20-Lo on) had solved almost every significant problem the P-38 had. However, most, if not all, of those problems had already been solved by the P-38K, in EARLY 1943. However, again, the WPB refused to allow Lockheed ANY time to stop production to bring the P-38K into production. Note that K comes AFTER J, and in fact the J was ready far earlier than when it entered production. The J should have begin production in late 1942, and the K should have been in production by April of 1943 at the latest. However, the J was just barely approaching production.

The P-38 should have entered service with the 8th AF in August of 1943 at the LATEST, with at least FOUR groups , not ONE, hastily rushed into service in October. They should have been flying the P-38J-10-Lo (at least, if not the K), and not the P-38G and P-38H models. In fact, by mid 1943, or late 1943 at the latest, the P-38 being produced should have been the K model, or an L version that was an improvement on the K. As it was, the K is actually superior in performance to even the L-10-Lo model. And further upgrades available at the time the K SHOULD have been in production would have been even better props.

Regarding the complexity of flying the P-38, as far back as EARLY 1943, Lockheed had made several improvements.

The first was thermostatic control of the doors for the oil coolers, the intercoolers, and the radiators. Because pilots were poorly trained, they were flying the P-38 in cruise conditions with the oil cooler doors open, the throttles set to full rich, and the radiators set for near maximum cooling. This caused the P-38 to: foul plugs, have runaway turbochargers (because the turbo is controlled by oil, and the cold oil congealed in the regulators), stumble and lose power on throttle application, detonate, burn valves, burn excessive fuel, and be unable to respond to pilot input attempting to transition from cruise to combat. Operating the P-38 at the correct temperature solved all of those problems, and even improved cockpit heating.

The second was dive flaps, allowing the P-38 to follow the German planes in dives above 20,000 feet.

The third was a second generator on the #2 engine. The sorry Curtiss Electric props supplied to Lockheed by the USAAF and the WPB, despite vehement protest by Lockheed, overloaded the electrical system of the P-38, one generator was not truly capable of supplying enough power to operate the props and the rest of the electrical equipment.

Fourth was a "combat master control", for lack of a better term. This system allowe the pilot to switch all systems on both engines from cruise operation to combat in one easy motion with one hand.

Fifth was the replacement of the Curtiss Electric props with the Hamiloton Standard hydrostatic high activity paddle prop. Not only was the Hamilton Standard prop more reliable, but it offered significant increases in all areas of performance, tops speed, climb, acceleration, and fuel efficiency

Sixth was the K-14 "no miss um" gun site.

Despite several requests by commanders in the field, who practically BEGGED for them, items 4, 5, and 6 were NEVER allowed on the P-38 due to the WPB and the USAAF.

Regarding the "quality of the opponent and his equipment" arguement comparing the Germans to the Japanese, SEVERAL pilots who flew against BOTH German AND Japanese opponents considered the Japanese to be AT LEAST equal to the Germans. These were experienced veteran combat pilots with kills against BOTH opponents.

The difference in the leadership between the 5th AF in the Pacific under  Gen. Kenney vs. the 8th AF under Spatz and his predecessors. Kenney LOVED the P-38 and his "mission", and he instilled confidence in his pilots and his staff regarding the P-38, and did not blame the shortcomings of the 5th AF and its personnel on the P-38. Kenney also continually went stateside and fought to get P-38s. Spatz, and his predecessors, on the other hand, blamed all of their problems on the P-47 at first and then the P-38, despite the fact that the P-38 performed admirably everywhere but under the 8th.

No, the P-38 was not a glowing success in Europe with the 8th AF, but neither was it a failure, nor a pushover for its German opponents, when flown by pilots properly trained and skilled. There were plenty of P-38 aces in Europe, and they didn't all pad their scores with inexperienced and poorly trained Germans either. John Lowell, Jack Ilfrey, Robin Olds, Larry Blumer, and many others did just fine in the P-38 against the best the Luftwaffe had to offer in men and equipment.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

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Offline SunKing

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Why in your opinion was the
« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2003, 05:02:22 PM »
The history channel had a good show on the p-38.. Their reason for the P-38 not doing good in Europe was because the P-38's sent to England / Europe  where without the supercharger which made all the difference in performace vs the LW. Without it they could'nt compete. In the Pacific theater they had the supercharger.

Offline Batz

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Why in your opinion was the
« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2003, 05:23:26 PM »
How many variants of the g6 were there Squire?

Which variant do we have?

What year did the p38l enter service?

Of those planes you listed which years did they enter service....

The p38l entered service in mid 44, what year did the ah g6 enter service?

What the difference between the g6 we have in ah and later variants of the g6?

You have never seen an event where the p38l was anything but a substitute for an early p38.

The p51d was in service before the p38l.

You can start here and if you need to I can bring most of the snapshots and events and show you where the p38 was included. In each one its there as a sub for an early variant.



Quote
U.S.Army:
A-20G ... 5-42
B-17G ... 6-43*
B-26B ... 5-42
C-47A ... 12-41
P-38L ... 7-44
P-40B ... 1-41
P-40E ... 8-41
P-47D-11 ... 1-44?*
P-47D-25 ... 4-44
P-47D-30 ... 10-44
P-51B ... 12-43
P51D ... 5-44?*

U.S.Navy:
F4F-4 ... 41?
FM-2 ... 9-43
F4U-1 ... 10-42
F4U-1D ... 4-44
F4U-1C ... 4-45
F4U-4 ... 4-45
F6F-5 ... 7-44
SBD-5 ... 5-43?*
TBM-3 ... 1-42

British:
Boston MK III ... 5-41
Hurricane Mk I ... 12-37
Hurricane IIC ... 4-41
Hurricane IID ... 6-42
Lancaster III ... 3-42*
Mosquito Mk VI ... 7-43
Seafire IIC ... 10-42
Spitfire Mk IA ... 6-38
Spitfire V ... 4-41
Spitfire Mk IX ... 7-42
Spitfire Mk XIV ... 1-44!*
Tempest V ... 5-44
Typhoon ... 6-42*

Russian:
Il-2 Type 3 ... 10-42
La-5FN ... 3-43
La-7 ... 6-44
Yak-9T ... 1-43
Yak-9U ... 3-44

Italian:
C.202 ... 11-41
C.205 ... 1-43

Japanese:
A6M2 ... 7-40
A6M5b ... 3-44!*
D3A-1 ... ?-37!
Ki-61-I-KAIc ... 1-44!
Ki-67 ... 4-44!*
N1K2-J ... 11-44?*

German:
Ar 234B ... 12-44
Bf 109E-4 ... 5-40
Bf 109F-4 ... 6-41
Bf 109G-2 ... 5-42
Bf 109G-6 ... 10-42
Bf 109G-10 ... 3-44
Bf 110C-4b ... 7-40
Bf 110G-2 ... 5-42
Fw 190A-5 ... 3-43
Fw 190A-8 ... 2-44
Fw 190D-9 ... 9-44
Fw 190F-8 ... 3-44?
Ju 88A-4 ... 12-40
Me 262 ... 7-44
Ta 152H ... 2-45


Notes:

*B-17G ... 6-43; The B-17G did enter service in 1943, however the B-17G in AH has the stepped waist guns and improved tail turret of a 1944 B-17G. This shouldn't have too much impact on gameplay though, being mainly limited to the greater range of movement in the tail turret.

*P-47D-11 ... 1-44?; This is based on my recollections of statements made by others in the "Give the P-47D-11 a paddle bladed prop" threads. However, given that the AH P-47D-11 lacks the paddle bladded prop it is a decent approximation of a P-47D-5, which entered service in 3-43.

*P51D ... 5-44?; The P-51D entered production in 2-44, so it clearly did not enter service in 1-44. I have looked and looked for a service entry date or a theatre arrival date for the P-51D, but have not (shockingly so given the aircraft's fame), been able to find even a hind. I am guestimating a 3 month lag between entering production and entering service.

*SBD-5 ... 5-43?; The SBD-5 entered production in 2-43, so like the P-51D I am guestimating a 3 month lag from production to service. I only found this information tonight (of course, I only looked for it tonight ) and have to admit to being somewhat disappointed in HTC about it. The SBD-5 introduced the 1,200hp R-1820-60, which brought with it a noticable performance jump. The SBD-2 and SBD-3 that fought the Battles of Coral Sea and Midway were powered by a 1,000hp engine and the SBD-2 lacked the dual rear gun. At the same time as we have a late SBD, we have an early D3A. The D3A1 is the aircraft that the Japanese used at Pearl Harbor, Coral Sea and Midway, but like the US with the SBD a better version was to be produced in greater quantity. The D3A2 entered production in 8-42 and boosted the top speed of the D3A by 39mph. As it is in AH, the US gets a over boosted aircraft and is in an artificial position of technical superiority, or greater superiority, than they should be.

*Lancaster III ... 3-42; The .50 calibre guns in the AH Lanc's tail mark it as a late war Lancaster, probably 1944. However, that change, particularly in light of its paltry ammunition supply (I'd probably prefer four .303s with 4,000 rounds), shouldn't have too much of an impact on the game. Limiting early access to the Lanc based on the tail turret might be justified.

*Spitfire Mk XIV ... 1-44!; The Spitfire entered service with 610 Squadron on January 3rd, 1944. 3-44 is the date of the first kill (a Ju88), but it was operational and on patrols prior to that.

*Typhoon ... 6-42; The only significant change, in the context of AH, that I am aware of is the change to a bubble canopy in late 1943. The performance of the Typhoon Mk Ib, so far as I can tell, remained relatively unchanged. The major difference between a 1942 Typhoon and a 1944 Typhoon was in it's reliability, which is a non-issue in AH.

*A6M5b ... 3-44!; The only difference between an A6M5a, which entered service in 1-44, and an A6M5b is the switching of one of the 7.7mm machine guns in the cowling for a 12.7mm machine gun. Substituting the A6M5b for A6M5b is reasonable. The A6M5 entered service in 8-43, but was significantly less pretected than the A6M5b. Nonetheless, this switch is probably still reasonable.

*Ki-67 ... 4-44!; The Ki-67 entered service with the IJA in 4-44. The first IJN usage as a torpedo bomber is in 10-44. Most Ki-67s were built in 1945.

*N1K2-J ... 11-44?; Production began in of the N1K2-J began in 6-44 and I have seen data that claiming that 60 were delivered in 1944. My best source for N1K2 combat entry is 150 miles away from me right now.



Now you tell me what you are talking about?

Offline Batz

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Why in your opinion was the
« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2003, 05:25:38 PM »
Quote
Fighter Aircraft Chronology WWII:

Apr '43 - XF6F-4 delivered (1 built); Seafire III enters production (1100 plus built); M.C. 205 enters
service; Fw 190A-5 enters production; Ki-61-I enters combat in New Guinea; Ki-84 first flight;
P-40L final delivery; YP-61 delivered; F3A-1 (Brewster F4U-1) delivery begins
May '43 - P-39Q delivered (4905 built); P-40N-5 delivered (1100 built); P-51B-1 delivered (1988 built);
XP-63 delivered (2 built); XP-63A delivered (1 built); Re.2005 enters service (29 built); He 219
pre-production deliveries begin; XP-60E first flight
Jun '43 - Yak-3 delivered in limited numbers; G.55 enters service (130 built); Ki-44-III first flight (1,225
Ki-44 built of all models); Fw 190A-6 enters production; first production Tempest V flight;
Tempest II first flight; La-7 first production flight; YP-59A first flight; XP-62 first flight; XP-55
first flight; Ta 154 V1 first flight; He 219A-0 begins operational testing
Jul '43 - He 219A-2 completed
Aug '43 - P-40N-10 delivered (100 built); P-51C delivered (1750 built); YP-61 delivered (13 built); Me
163B first flight; Mosquito NF.XIII first flight; Ki-61-II first flight; A6M5 first flight; Ki-84-Ia
first production flight; J1N1-S begins production; XP-51G first flight
Fall '43 - Ki-96 first flight; Me 328 unpowered flight tests
Sep '43 - P-38J delivered (2970 built); P-40N-15 delivered (377 built); P-40N-20 delivered (1523 built);
FM-2 delivered (4437 built plus 340 Martlet VI); F6F-3N built (229 built); XP-56 first flight;
Me 310 first flight
Oct '43 - P-61A delivered (200 built); P-63A delivered (1725 built); Fairy Firefly enters service; Ki-84
begins service trials; Do 335 V1 first flight; He 219A-2 delivered
Nov '43 - He 219A-1 production deliveries begin; XP-75 first flight; XP-47J first flight; Ta 154A-0 first
flight
Dec '43 - N1K2-J first flight; J2M2 service delivery begins; Ki-44-IIb first flight; XF7F-1 first flight;
Ki-61-II first flight; Ki-64 first flight
early '44 - La-9 first flight
Jan '44 - P-40N-25 delivered (499 built); P-51D-1 delivered (8056 delivered D-1 to D-30); XF6F-2 first
flight (1 delivered); F6F-3E delivered (18 built); Yak-9u first flight; Ki-61-Ic begins production;
XP-80 first flight; XP-67 first flight; Ju 388J (V2) first flight; Spitfire F.MkXIV enters service.
Feb '44 - Mosquito Mk XIII enters service (270 built); XP-51F first flight; XP-72 first flight
Mar '44 - final N1K1 delivery; A6M5a delivery begins; F6F-3 final delivery; F6F-5 first flight; He 219A-5
delivered
Apr '44 - P-40N-30 delivered (500 built); P-47D-25 delivered (6289 built, D-25 to D-40); XF4U-3
delivered (2 built); F6F-5 Þrst þight (7868 built); Tempest enters service (800 plus built); Ki-84
second pre-production run begins; Ki-84-I operational service begins; F7F-1 delivery begins
Spring '44 - Yak-3 enters large scale production; Ju 88G-1 begins production
May '44 - F4U-4X Þrst þight (2 converted); A7M first flight; Me 163B-1 first delivered to Luftwaffe;
Me 262A-0 first delivered for testing; Beaufighter Mk 21 (Australia) first flight; Tempest VI first
flight; J2M5 first flight; J2M5 begins testing; XP-77 first flight; XFG-2 first flight; BV 40 first
flight; Do 335A-0 pre-production delivery begins; Ju 88G-1 begins operational service

Jun '44 - P-38L delivered (3923 built); N1K2-J enters production; XP-58 first flight; Me 262A service with
first experimental combat unit (EK 262); P1Y1-S night fighter conversions begin; Ki-102a first
flight (15 delivered); N1K2-J begins production; YP-60E first flight; XP-80A first flight; XFR-1
first flight (piston engine only); F3A-1 final delivery (735 built); Ta 154A-1 first production
flight; La-7 enters service


Jul '44 - P-40N-35 delivered (500 built); P-61B delivered (450 built); XF6F-6 Þrst þight (2 built); Gloster
Meteor Mk I enters service; Ta-152H first flight; D.H. 103 Hornet first flight; Me 163 first combat
vs USAAF
Summer '44 - Yak-3 enters service in quantity; Ki-108 flight trials
Aug '44 - Fw 190D-9 deliveries begin (650-700 built); Ki-109 first flight; XF8F-1 first flight; P-59A first
flight (20 built); P-61B delivery begins (450 built); Ta 154 program cancelled; Me 263A-1
unpowered flight trials
fall '44 - Ki-109 first flight; Do 335A-1 enters production (none delivered before factory captured)


Sep '44 - P-47N delivered (826 built); XF4U-4 delivered (5 built); first Me 262A squadron service (8/ZG
26); last Hurricane deliveries; Ki-46-III-Kai night fighter conversions begin; Ki-61-II production
begins; A6M5c first flight; Fury first flight (Centaurus engine); XP-75A first flight; Do 335A-0
service trials begin
Oct '44 - P-40N-40 delivered (216 built); A7M2 (Sam) first flight (9 prototypes and 1 production model
built); Bf 109K-4 deliveries begin (700 built); pre-production Ta-152H-0's delivered for service
testing; Tempest II first production flight; F7F-1 final delivery (500 built); F7F-2N delivery
begins (65 built) Ki-43-II production ends
Nov '44 - Ki-83 first flight; Ta-152H-1 deliveries begin (34 delivered by years end); A6M6c first prototype
built; Fury first flight (RR Griffon engine); XF8B-1 first flight; P-40N final delivery
Dec '44 - P-47M delivered (130 built); P-63C delivered (1427 built); F4U-4 delivered (2357 built);
Ta-152C-0 flight testing begins; He 162 first flight; M.C.200 final deliveries; Ki-43-IIIa first
flight; Ki-44-III production ends; P-59B first flight; F8F-1 delivery begins
late '44 / early '45 - La-11 first flight
Jan '45 - He 162 service deliveries begin; XFD-1 first flight
Feb '45 - P-38M delivered (75 converted from L); P-51H delivered (555 built); Ki-100-1 first flight (396
built of all types); D.H. 103 Hornet first service delivery; Sea Fury first flight; XP-83 first flight;
XP-81 first flight; XF15C-1 first flight; P-80A delivery begins
Mar '45 - conversion of Ki-61-II to Ki-100 begins; XF8B-1 first delivered (3 built); F7F-3 delivery begins;
FR-1 delivery begins (66 built)
Apr '45 - Ki-87 first flight; Ki-93 first flight; A6M8 prototype completed; navalised D.H. 103 Hornet first
flight; XP-51J first flight; XP-82 first flight
May '45 - P-63E delivered (13 built); Seafire Mk XV entered service (390 built); Ki-100-II entered
production; first production Firefly FR.4; Ki-100-Ib entered production; Ki-100-II first flight
summer '45 - La-11 service delivery begins
Jul '45 - P-61C delivered (41 built); J8M1 first flight (blew up); Ki-106 begins flight trials; XP-47H first
flight
Aug '45 - J7W first flight; Ki-94 first flight; Nakajima Kikka first flight; P-59B service delivery begins (30
built); FM-2 final delivery; F7F-2N final delivery
Sep '45 - Seafire Mk XVII entered service (232 built); last Beaufighter deliveries from UK; final P-47N
delivery
Oct '45 - last Beaufighter deliveries from Australia; P-82B first flight
Nov '45 - final Typhoon deliveries; final F6F-5 delivery


compiled by Gregory W Shaw gwshaw@uswest.net



http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26235

Offline Batz

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Why in your opinion was the
« Reply #36 on: February 06, 2003, 05:35:13 PM »
also you seem not understand what the 190a8s roll was in western europe, the same with the f8 in general.

As I said the only 2 planes that are close would be the d9 and g10.  Point to an event in ah where g10 and d9s faced the p38l.

Your idea of "historical match ups" is not accurrate.

You see the point now?

Quote
The P-38L in AH makes a fine escort fighter I have found in historical match ups.


I'll ask you again, What historical match ups are you referring to?

The one where its a g6 vrs a p38l?

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Why in your opinion was the
« Reply #37 on: February 06, 2003, 05:41:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SunKing
The history channel had a good show on the p-38.. Their reason for the P-38 not doing good in Europe was because the P-38's sent to England / Europe  where without the supercharger which made all the difference in performace vs the LW. Without it they could'nt compete. In the Pacific theater they had the supercharger.


ALL P-38s had a supercharger (crank driven) on each engine. However, the P-38s sold to the British did not have TURBOCHARGERS (exhaust driven supercharger). Nor did they have counter rotating engines and props. The addition of a turbocharger to each engine was the key to the high altitude performance of the P-38. Also, the P-47 had the same turbocharger as the P-38, and that was why the P-47 had such incredible performance at high altitude.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Squire

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Why in your opinion was the
« Reply #38 on: February 06, 2003, 05:45:59 PM »
Im not about to research every TOD setup or Snap we ever did but try this one:

http://events.simladder.com/snapshot.php?snapshot_id=45

P-38Ls were used by that group. I flew the Snap twice.

We did a TOD where it was "8th USAAF vs the LW" Germany late 1944, LW had 190Ds, 262s, 109G10s, and the Allies had the P-38L, and P-47D-30, and P-51D as its fighters. I flew a P-38L in that one.

"Reclaiming the Phillipines" Friday TOD as well, there are others. CT setups? several.

So there you go. Im not sure what its supposed to prove claiming that the P-38L was never used in an event besides being a substitute, in the first place, but its incorrect.

Entry dates you list, again, does not address anything I posted, Im not sure what your point is. 109 varients? how many? again, you tell me, Im not sure where you are going with any of that other than you seem pissed about it, me, and everything else.

Regards.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2003, 06:20:24 PM by Squire »
Warloc
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Why in your opinion was the
« Reply #39 on: February 06, 2003, 06:01:59 PM »
By the way, I think Eaker was the predecessor to Spatz, and if I remember correctly, there was one more before Eaker. All three were buddies with Hap Arnold. It was Eaker's predecessor who sent all of his P-38s to North Africa. Despite knowing that only the P-38 had any chance of reaching into Germany on escort duty.

Also, there was a terrible problem with British Petroleum fuel, which was low octane dishwater which dropped its lead out of suspension about the time the P-38 got to Germany.

One last thing. In the Pacific, the 5th AF had a theatre indoctrination manual (written by none other than Major Thomas McGuire) that explained how and why to fly a mission, and how to fight each enemy plane. Despite having a few pilots capable of writing such a manual, like Ilfrey for example, nothing like this was ever done. Yet another failure of the 8th AF to get their feces cohesive.

And add guys like Erv Ethell (4 kills), and Richard Loehnhardt (pilot of "California Cutie", and holder of the record for most missions and hours in a P-38 with zero failures) to the roster of P-38 pilots who could and did get the job done.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2003, 06:09:27 PM by Captain Virgil Hilts »
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline SunKing

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Why in your opinion was the
« Reply #40 on: February 06, 2003, 06:34:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
ALL P-38s had a supercharger (crank driven) on each engine. However, the P-38s sold to the British did not have TURBOCHARGERS (exhaust driven supercharger). Nor did they have counter rotating engines and props. The addition of a turbocharger to each engine was the key to the high altitude performance of the P-38. Also, the P-47 had the same turbocharger as the P-38, and that was why the P-47 had such incredible performance at high altitude.



Super charger , turbocharger  ra ra ra .. I was close.. :p

Offline Batz

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Why in your opinion was the
« Reply #41 on: February 06, 2003, 07:04:09 PM »
That snapshot is the same as the ToD (same write up and everything).

There wasnt any escort that I recall.

That snapshot was ki-61s attacking fleets and p38s were cap.

Also in the 8th AF vrs the lw (I flew in that) I didnt see 1 p38l. As a matter of fact my squaddie and I discussed the very fact that finally they could use the p38l. All we saw were jugs and p51s.

This ToD mirrored another that used the same map and planeset but had limited d9s and g10s. The p38l was avail. Again I never saw 1. We flew g6s vrs p51bs.

In the tod "Reclaiming the Philipines" my squad flew p38s but we did no escort.

As for being pissed off.... I dunno what you are talking about.

I checked all the scores I have and in no pac set up did I ever see p38 escorts. So I took your statement to mean ETO. The scores are no longer up for the eto tods so I cant check how many kills or  deaths the p38 had. But like I said I didnt see any.

ETO wise though the p38l is mostly put up against the 109g6.

If you say you flew p38ls as an escort in either of the 2 8th AF set ups I will take your word for it but in both of those I never saw any 38s. Most other set ups that had the p38 had it matched with the g6.

Offline Squire

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Why in your opinion was the
« Reply #42 on: February 07, 2003, 01:33:49 AM »
You can check the logs for the TOD, Im in a P-38L. I never saw a Me 262 that frame myself, despite being quite a few up, that sort of thing is not uncommon.

As for the rest, I will leave it at that then. We both get a bit hot under the collar from time to time, nature of the AH BB I guess . I wasn't looking for a flame war. We debate from time to time, I rather enjoy them.

As for the P-38, it is indeed a major USAAF a/c not to have an early version for, and hopefully one will come along at some point.

Regards.
Warloc
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Offline akak

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Why in your opinion was the
« Reply #43 on: February 07, 2003, 01:47:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Killjoy2
When the p-38 was introduced to RAF it was greatly poo-pooed.

To demonstrate its ability, the Lockheed training pilot challenged the best RAF ace to a duel.  P-38 to spit V (I think).

P-38 cleaned up on the spit.  True Story found in "Fork Tailed Devil"



It was Lt. Col. John Lowell (probably the best P-38 pilot in the ETO) in a P-38G vs. a Spitfire Mk XI and the bet was for a few cases of beer.  Lowell was supposedly able to out maneuver the Spitfire's maneuvering by using the 'cloverleaf' maneuver.


Ack-Ack

Offline akak

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Why in your opinion was the
« Reply #44 on: February 07, 2003, 01:55:55 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
One of the books I read (can't recall the title) had mentioned that more than one German fighter pilot, upon seeing P38's escorting Buffs, began basically "licking their chops" knowing that the P38 was an easy kill.  Apparently they felt very confident that their 109's and 190's could out perform them.


If any of you have ever played Air Warrior, one of the players was a real World War II pilot, named Earl that flew in the Mediterranian flying P-38s, P-39s and P-47s.  I asked him in his opinion how did American planes like the P-38 and P-39 fair againt the Luftwaffe planes and this was his reply.  Remember, he's going by his experience of his time in combat against the Luftwaffe.

Quote
In most all engagements I am aware of, the P-39, P-38, and P-47 outflew German planes, except the P-39s early in the African campaign.  Even then, I believe it was more a matter of tactics of the pilots than the P-39s themselves.  Later, our pilots were quite capable of holding their
own.

earl