Author Topic: Anyone here into Astrophotography?  (Read 1200 times)

Offline CptTrips

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« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2003, 04:42:27 PM »
Oh, one more thing, I don't care if you have to sell blood or dress up as a sheep and prostitute yourself....

Get the Meade eyepiece deal for the extra $99.  Its simply the best deal I've seen in 10 years.  They will also perform very well with the longer F9 focal ratio of the AR-5.  You won't regret it.


Wab
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Offline CptTrips

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« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2003, 04:47:53 PM »
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Hmmm, while we're on the subject...is a Meade LX/50 any good?



SOB,  

Sorry bud, I'm not familiar with the LX50.  Could you point me at a source?

Wab
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Offline OIO

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« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2003, 05:51:07 PM »
I thought refractors gave really crappy deep field views. Ach i am so confused now :p


Well, let me ask ye this evil wabbit:

If I had said 50% 50% on my interests of planets/stars, which would you have recommended?

Also, what is your opinion on the Meade DS-2114ATS? Im really looking at this one because where I work at we have a program where I might be able to get this one almost for free, but I would like to know what I can expect from that scope (there is other junk I can get for free with the same program hehehe).

SOB: Link to that LX50? I couldnt even find it in the MEADE products catalog on-line. They have LX10 LX90 and LX200's, but no 50's. :(

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2003, 06:10:32 PM »
"Look mom, nerds"

Offline funkedup

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« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2003, 06:13:51 PM »
I'm into Assphotography.  Is any of that equipment useful for taking long distance pics of my hot neighbor?

Offline CptTrips

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« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2003, 06:39:38 PM »
Well, now you didn't mention anything about free!  Of course anything free is better.  You can always use it for a while til you decide what you want to spend money on.

Now, your only talking 4.5" aperture inch there.  And its a newtonian so it has a central obstruction.  Prolly about a 1" diameter secondary.  So it only has about 4" real aperture and because of the central obstruction won't have as clean and high contrast an image as a refractor.  

That scope will certainly be worse on both the planets and deep sky stuff than the AR-5, but if you can get it almost free so what?  You've lost nothing.  Later when you feel you're ready to step up, you can spend some money then.  Maybe by then, you'll be ready to step up to a 8" SCT which would really prolly be closest to what you're looking for. But that will cost money.

Sound like the free one is a good starter scope for ya.



FYI,

A longer focal ratio refractor will be better on planets than galaxies.  A shorter focal ratio reflector will be better on galaxies than planets.

If you're mainly interested in deep sky stuff you prolly want a reflector because:

   - You can get more aperture per dollar

   -  You can usually get shorter focal ratios in reflectors which is    better for deep sky.

   -  Deep sky objects are usually already kinda fuzzy and low contrast like nebulas and galaxies so the loss of contrast from the central obstruction (secondary mirror) on a newtonian is not much of an issue.  


If you're mainly interested in planetary stuff (and are going to stay below about 6") you prolly want a refractor:

   -  no central obstruction so the image is much sharper and higher contrast.

   -  longer focal ratios give you larger image scale and higher mag for a given eyepiece.

   -  its a sealed tube, easier to maintain and no tube currents.

 
There are no exact answers.  Its all about priorities and trade-offs.


Hope this helps.

Wab






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Offline OIO

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« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2003, 08:15:48 PM »
It does help a lot thanks :)

Thing is, I probably wont be able to get the scope via my job before that wonderful $99 deal expires *grrr*. So perhaps ill just buy the refractor and get IT with the optics.. then get the DS one in my job, sell it and use its money to get the LXD55 6" :D :D

Offline OIO

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« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2003, 12:14:15 PM »
hey wabbit, about those "hybrid" scopes (casselgrains)...


Whats the difference between their type?

There is Schmidt-Cas and matsukov-cas types.

There's this one:   Meade ETX-125EC  

Includes Maksutov-Cassegrain optical tube assembly (D = 127mm (5.0"), F = 1900mm, f/15) with MgF2 coatings on the correcting lens and standard aluminum coatings on the primary and secondary mirrors (Ultra-High Transmission Coatings, available optionally); internal flip-mirror system for either straight-through or 90° observing position; aluminum fork mount with electric slow-motion controls, setting circles and locks on both axes; electronic control panel; 4-speed (8x, 32x, 0.75°/sec, 5°/sec) dual-axis motor drive system with Electronic Controller; sidereal-rate tracking in equatorial mode with optional table tripod or deluxe field tripod; internal battery compartment accepting eight (user-supplied) AA-size batteries; 8x25mm right-angle viewfinder; Series 4000 Super Plössl 26mm eyepiece (1.25"); operating instructions.

and this one:

NexStar 5i Specifications:

* 127mm (5") Diameter Schmidt-Cassegrain

* Focal Length of 1250mm

* Focal Ratio of f/10

* 6° per second slew speed

* Fully enclosed high speed motors on both axes

* Integrated hand controller built into the side of the fork arm

* Schmidt-Cassegrain optics with Starbright coating

* Designated AutoGuider port

* Auxiliary Port for optional Accessories, including CN-16 GPS module

* Battery Compartment for 8 (user supplied) AA batteries

* Weight: 17.6 lbs


How would these 2 compare vs a refractor for planets and a reflector for deep-sky? And to each other, they seem to do be the same thing
:confused: :confused:

edit:

Just saw a 10" Reflector LXD-55 for less than $1000 WITH the Go-To and tripod :P .

aya yai...

Would a 10" reflector get better or just as good a view of the planets as the 5" refractor?
« Last Edit: February 09, 2003, 12:39:23 PM by OIO »

Offline CptTrips

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« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2003, 01:36:05 PM »
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There is Schmidt-Cas and matsukov-cas types.



They are very similar designs with similar performance.  The main difference is the type of corrector lens plate up front.  The cas used an almost flat plate.  The matsukov uses a heavily curved corrector that traditionally has been considered difficult to shape well.  But with computer controlled grinding now days I don't think its much of a problem.  


I considered both those mentioned scopes before making my recommendation.  They are  both good scopes.  I've heard good things about both.  But there are a couple of reasons I leaned towards the AR-5:

   - Although both the above mentioned scopes are "sealed" systems, they also both have secondaries that will need periodic adjustment.  The refreactor requires none.

   - Since both the above scopes have secondary mirrors, the area blocked by the secondary has to be subtracted from the total light gathering aperture of the main tube.  So a 5" reflector with a secondary doesn't gather as much light as a 5" clear aperture refractor.  Plain and simple.

   -  When ever you have a central obstruction (like a scondary), it causes light to be scattered as it enters the tube.  This is called diffraction.  It will cause you to get a slightly less crisp image and will slightly washout and reduce the contrast of the image.  A refractor has no central obstruction.  You can focus star into much more pinpoint like sharp dots.  You get a much higher contrast image.

  - Both those scopes had equal or longer F/ratios as the AR-5 with no more aperture so they'd do no better or worse on deep sky stuff versus the refractor.

On the other hand, both those other scopes are "folded" light path  so they fit into a shorter tube which is easier to mount stablely.



Still, my personal rule of thumb would be:  anything approaching equal aperture and equal electronics I'd always choose the refractor.


However, you generally can't get a refractor over 6" without paying a king's ransom.   However reflectors over 6" aperture are common.  Shear aperture can overcome alot of design defficiencies.

I'd take a 5" refractor over a 6" schmidt-newt any day.  Now a 5" refractor vs a 8" schmidt-newt is a much harder decision.  Would I take a 10" newtonian reflector over a 5" refractor?  Hmmm probably (with some caveats).  But now you're talking much more than the $600 you told me I had to work with. ;)  Watch it!  Its a slippery slope that leads to a 12" monster!

I'd need to think about it some more to give a clearer opinion.  However the first thing to look at is the mounting.  That is where most dealers try to recover the cost.  When they put that 10" on the same tripod they use for 6" and 8" then its prolly way to heavy for the mount.  You'll have bad problems with vibration and general wobblyness.

You're getting close to the dollar amount where I'd start recommending a well made 8" Schmidt-Cas rather than a 10" newt or schmidt-newt.  It'll be less maintainence and will prolly have a more stable mounting because of its shorter tube.


You're starting to see why I recommended joining a club and get a chance to try out a lot of different designs and sizes before making a decision.  There are a lot of variables to balance. :)

Wab








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Offline OIO

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« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2003, 01:38:33 PM »
Would the 10" reflector LXD-55 have comparable or better planetary views than a 5" refractor wabbit?

(you can see me digging my own greed-grave no? LOL) :D

Yeah, the 600 buck ballpark is getting to be a bit wobbly. The way I see it, anything over $400 is worth getting GOOD or not getting at all. Getting a 5" refractor for 600 bucks and then noticing i cant take decent pics of nebulas is something i'd curse myself for. But a 900 dollar 10" reflector, if it has as-good planet pics as the 5" reflector and i'd assume, darn good deep-sky views, then its a good tradeoff in my book.

The mount was something I was reading about in reviews.. some folks have guides on how to adapt the heavier scopes on those mounts without too much spending, so that wont be a problem i think. :)
« Last Edit: February 09, 2003, 01:42:39 PM by OIO »

Offline CptTrips

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« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2003, 02:30:42 PM »
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Would the 10" reflector LXD-55 have comparable or better planetary views than a 5" refractor wabbit?


Hmmmmm .... probably.  But there are a couple of variables to consider (as always ;)):

   - the scope you mentioned is a F/4 focal ratio.  Short focal ratio scopes aren't optimal for planetary observing.  They give wide field of view but small image scale.   Short focal ratio scopes also introduce defects like "coma" and "field curvature" to the edges of the image.  Eyepieces have a harder time performing well with short focal ratios because the light cone is so steep.  You'll have to use very short focal length eyepieces to get a usable mag for planets which means they have little eye relief and are more uncomfortable to use.  Also short focal ratio scopes have a secondary that is a larger percentage of the total aperture than the same diameter scope with a longer focal ratio.  The larger percentage obstruction increases diffraction and loss of contract.  Also short focal ratio scopes are more sensitive to missalignment than longer focal ratio scopes.  You'd have to be very dilligent about keeping it perfectly collimated (collimation is the aligning of optical elements of a telescope).  You have to check it often especially if you move the scope around. For an F/4 scope, it wouldn't take much missalignment to degrade the performance on planets below that of a 5" refractor (that requires no collimation).

   - When doing planetary work you are usually working at relatively high mag.  The effects of vibration are equally magnified as at hi mag.  On a wobbly scope, at high mag, just touching the focusing knob or a slight breeze can cause the image to wobble unusablly for 10-15 seconds.    I have grave doubts that you would be able to renforce the mount sufficiently.   I'd almost rather see you get a 10" manual Dob which would be much cheaper and rock solid (although no tacking or goto).  


I'd consider that scope more 70% deep sky/ 30% planetary.





At the money range you're now talking about, I'd lean more towards the LDX55 SC-8.  

-  Its F10 rather than F4
- Its on the same mount but 1/3 the weight and length so MUCH more stable.  An order of magnitude more stable.
- its alot more compact and easy to more around, easier to store
- schmidt-cass's are easier to maintain than newts.  There is only one optical element to adjust rather than two.

Its a little less aperture than the 10" newt but I think you'd be happier with it overall.


Wab
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Offline CptTrips

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« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2003, 02:36:10 PM »
Of course we've strayed pretty far from an "almost free" 4.5" reflector.  ;)

You now officially have contracted "aperture fever"!  Lol! ;)

There is an antidote, but it is usually very expensive.

Wab
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Offline OIO

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« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2003, 03:05:15 PM »
:D :D :D

Im getting the flu hehe.

K one last question (yeah right! haha)

This Ultra-High Transmission Coating thingy.. its said to improve the scope by about 20%.

Does that mean that, say, a 6" with that thing would perform like an 8" reflector without it? Or would the 8" without it still outperform the 6" with it?

Offline CptTrips

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« Reply #28 on: February 09, 2003, 03:54:59 PM »
Heheh.  After I wrote that last post I was looking at the scope add in Astronomy magazine and I said to myself "next he's going to ask about the coating..."


The straight answer to your question is........kinda/sorta. ;)


OK.  Here's the deal.  There are a couple of ways of measuring the performance of a given telescope.  Quality or quantity.

1.  You can talk about its "Resolving" power:  Quality.  It refers to how fine of detail can be teased out of an image.  Like can you see that little 1km wide crater on the lunar surface or does it just blur into a dark smudge.  Its mostly a function of aperture but can be effected by things like the size of the central obstruction, collimation, focal ratio, etc.  The way they used to measure it was by looking at binary stars of a know distance of separation.  By looking at different pairs that had different known separation distances you could find the pair that you could just barely "resolve" into two separate stars rather than a single elongated blob.  That distance between the stars , usually measured in ArcSec's or ArcMin's, was the "resolving" power of the scope.  This test was known as "splitting doubles".  So if I could just split a double with a known separation of 2 ArcSec's then the scope was said to have "2 ArcASec resolving power".

2. The other measurement is pure "light gathering" power: Quantity.  You don't really care about how sharp and focused it is you just want to know how dim an object you can see.  This is usually measures in "Magnitude".  Magnitude is a logarithmic measurement scale of light intensity.  Wierd thing is its inverse.  The lower the number, the brighter the object.  The brightest star you see in the night sky is about -1mag.  Distant galaxies may be 15mag.  A person with good vision at a dark country site can see to about 6mag with the naked eye.  Light gathering is purely a function of effective aperture.  Basically, how many photons can you put on the eyeball.


The coating will increase your "light gathering" power, but it will do nothing to help your resolving power.  The 20% increase, which I hear is REALLY more close to 12% is in AREA not diameter.  So a 6" with coating will be more like a 6.5".  You might see a slightly dimmer galaxy but it won't make Jupiter look any sharper.

For planetary stuff resolving power is much more important than pure light gathering power.  Given your stated ratio of interest and the amount of cost, you could easily do without it.  I certainly wouldn't trade the eyepiece deal for it.  But if you had the money to throw around, it wouldn't hurt anything. ;)

Clear as mud?


Wab
« Last Edit: February 09, 2003, 03:58:53 PM by AKWabbit »
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Offline OIO

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« Reply #29 on: February 09, 2003, 04:02:20 PM »
MUD :)

yeah thank a bunch. You should write a newbie guide wabbit. All your posts have been VERY layman's terms.

All the other newbie guides to this hobby have been quite heavy into terminology (you almost slipped into it "Also short focal ratio scopes have a secondary that is a larger percentage of the total aperture than the same diameter scope with a longer focal ratio. The larger percentage obstruction increases diffraction and loss of contract." heehee).

Astrophotography 4 Dummies
By Akwabbit

Has  a nice ring to it. Maybe its sale could get you that 50" reflector you want... :D :D

Edit: What i'll do is hunt the net for pics to compare before I decide. If I see that a 5" refractor with X eyepiece pics look just a taaad different from the 10" reflector pic with same eyepiece i may go for the reflector. Im into both planets and deep sky, i just thought planets would be neater to picture. But now that ive been informed the nebulae pictures were not really color-enchanced, that the color does show on the film but not the naked eye.. well that changes things a LOT :)
« Last Edit: February 09, 2003, 04:08:37 PM by OIO »