Author Topic: Have you ever noticed... (Read 360 times)

Naso · « **on:** February 13, 2003, 02:04:47 PM »

One of the posts (scary reading) made me joking about Italy to buy a Nimitz class CV with few (well, few...) dollars.

A little bit later i tought about the numbers....

Yes, the numbers.

Have you ever noticed that Italian ships have the ID numbers on the hull in RED?

All the nations have it in Black, only Italy in red.

Sometime, when i thing about the why of this strange thing, i feel some.... shame.

The origin of this is in '43, when Italian ships were going in Sardinia, when the Roma was sunk in the first succesfull use of the Fritz X guided bomb.

The fleet was going to surrender in the hands of the allies.

Maybe was the right thing to do, maybe was better to "auto-sink" (correct?) the ships.

Anyway, part of the Armistice pact was that from that moment and for 100 years, the italian ships had to "wear" the red number.

I hope to live until 2043 to see this humiliation end.

ra · « **Reply #1 on:** February 13, 2003, 02:10:14 PM »

Quote

Anyway, part of the Armistice pact was that from that moment and for 100 years, the italian ships had to "wear" the red number.

I've never heard of such a clause in any armistice pact, ever. Is there an English-language link to it somewhere? Whoever wrote that pact must have had a strange sense of humor. Why not require Italian admirals to wear miniskirts, too?

ra

Ripsnort · « **Reply #2 on:** February 13, 2003, 02:12:26 PM »

Hey, you've always got Ferrari to be proud of!

capt. apathy · « **Reply #3 on:** February 13, 2003, 02:14:53 PM »

was their some sort of logical reason for this (possibly to distinguish ships who have surrendered from ships that decided to hold out or keep fighting)?

or was this just some sort of humiliation thing? I've never heard of this before. of course I don't know much about Italy other than the food is good.

Curval · « **Reply #4 on:** February 13, 2003, 02:17:28 PM »

Geeze Naso...no offense but I didn't think Italy had much of a naval force in '43. I thought the British dealt with that problem at Taranto in 1940?

Naso · « **Reply #5 on:** February 13, 2003, 02:56:01 PM »

No Curval, you are wrong.

Capt. Apathy, It was the first (and only) navy to ever surrender herself in the hand of the enemy.

The use in naval tradition is to sink the ships.

Remember Mers-el-Kebir?

The Graf-Spee?

The story is almost forgotten in the young Navy

BTW, an hint:

Never ever joke about it with an old navy boy, never (expecially an incursori).
It still hurts, and the reaction can be... excessive.

Dowding · « **Reply #6 on:** February 13, 2003, 02:59:56 PM »

Naso, by 'auto-sink', you mean 'scuttle'.

Naso · « **Reply #7 on:** February 13, 2003, 03:04:55 PM »

Thx Dowding...

I hope my memory cells are working tonight

Curval · « **Reply #8 on:** February 13, 2003, 03:05:48 PM »

http://users.swing.be/navbat/bataille/314.html

I like your style Naso....you told me I was wrong...and you were right...but you made ME do the research.

3 out of 6 BBs sunk...two later refloated. 1 Heavy Cruiser, 1 Destroyer.

Italy still had a solid Navy after Taranto. Why wasn't it effective, or was it?

Naso · « **Reply #9 on:** February 13, 2003, 03:19:57 PM »

I the 43 the Ita fleet included some very good ship, like the Roma, a very good one, almost of the class of the King George V, or (well, almost) Bismark, or similar high profile BBs, and this was one of the reasons that pushed the Germans to try to sink it before the surrender, spoiling the secret weapon FritzX.

For a long time in the war the Ita fleet was stronger than Uk Med Fleet, but Taranto was a major kick in the balls.

There were a couple of battles, later, the problem was'nt the fleet in itself, but the fear that Supermarina (head navy command) had to lose more ships, with the lack of primary resources, could have been really difficult to build new ones, not counting the blow to the interior front (propaganda and regime credibility).

More, there was an inferiority in modern apparatus, like radars (UK navy had 1 heavy cruiser and a BB with range and exploring radar), so during the night the Admiral Campioni felt to be with pants down, with the UK Navy dangerously near to the back

as the loss of an entire cruiser squad showed (Pola and others).

The sorties of Ita Navy BB groups become more rare as the war was proceeding, untill the final surrender.

Another story was the one of the small untis, like the submarines, the "Maiali" (man-guided torpedos - Queen Elizabeth), or the MAS (Motoscafi di ASsalto veloci).

But the latter is the bright part of history

Hangtime · « **Reply #10 on:** February 13, 2003, 04:54:53 PM »

Naso, I was unable to find any direct refrence to the red numbering scheme you refer to.
I did find an italian website that details the history and battle actions of the italian navy both before and after the armistice.

And i thank you.. I learned a lot today, and I tip my swabbie hat to the Italian Navy.. they fought hard, they have nothing to be ashamed of.

I'm guessing the red numbering has to do witnh some units that declined to surrender to the allies after the armistice?

Hortlund · « **Reply #11 on:** February 13, 2003, 05:09:54 PM »

*cough*

Naso · « **Reply #12 on:** February 13, 2003, 05:34:25 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Hortlund
*cough*

Come on, Hortlund, you bitter man..

You can do better than this

Naso · « **Reply #13 on:** February 13, 2003, 05:40:14 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Hangtime
I'm guessing the red numbering has to do witnh some units that declined to surrender to the allies after the armistice?

No no, it has to do with the surrendering, instead to scuttle the ships. (correct? scuttle, i mean

).

And I dont think you will find something about it, it's a little thing, too little to be interesting for Internet (thanks God

).

There are other small things like this one, in fact there were 2 Armistice pacts, or better 2 acts.

Here they are called "enlarged Act", and "Restrict Act".

The latter it's still under state's secret, probably will never be published.