Convince Me!

[Hangtime]

Dammit.. I gotta be blinded to reason or something.



So reason with me.. give it a try; I won't bite..

Convince me.

Convince me that allowing saddam to stay in power is the right course of action. Convince me we should wait for the UN to ok an attack. Convince me that the French are right, and the U.S. is wrong.

C'mon, I took off the damn suit.. Convince me!

[UserName]

Originally posted by Hangtime
Dammit.. I gotta be blinded to reason or something.



So reason with me.. give it a try; I won't bite..

Convince me.

Convince me that allowing saddam to stay in power is the right course of action. Convince me we should wait for the UN to ok an attack. Convince me that the French are right, and the U.S. is wrong.

C'mon, I took off the damn suit.. Convince me!

Why should anyone convince you? It's not as if you wield any power. Face it, your opinion (or mine, or anyone elses opinion on this board) counts for jack toejam in the Real World™.

[senna]

>>C'mon, I took off the damn suit..

Does this mean you are naked now?

[davidpt40]

Heres the reason:

Saddam is not a threat to the U.S.  He can barely attack neighboring countries.  The U.S. has huge economic problems here in the states and waging a war would cost way too much.  Our national defecit is already huge.  Also, there are no ties between Saddam and Osama Bin Laden.  If there were, we would have been in Iraq a year ago.  15 of the 18 (or whatever) hi-jackers were Saudi Arabian, not Iraqi.

[SOB]

Well yeah, except for the pasties.  Hang loves his pasties!


SOB

[Ghosth]

Have to agree with Hangtime.

Wipe that sucker off the face of the earth & all his high level command structure along with him.

You saw what happened on 9/11 with a few small cells ,a willingness to die for their cause, & a few box cutters.

All Saddam has to do is tell Osama
"hey goofball, over here, take this stuff to the godless heathen in the USA & spread it around"

Saddam wins, we lose.  Just because there is no proven ties now doesn't mean it won't happen. Frankly I'm suprised it hasn't happend already.

Remember "the enemy of my enemy = my friend"????

[Sandman]

It's also better to have an enemy you know than to have one you don't.


The real question is, "Will the removal of Hussein make the U.S. safer?"


I certainly don't think so. I do not believe he's a threat.

[StSanta]

Hang, it's the other way around - the onus of proof is on the claimant.

Other than that, convince me too. Of anything. Just try.

PTTFFH Hangtime, just teasin'.

[Karnak]

Osama bin Laden hates Saddam.

Why?

Because Saddam runs a secular government (we all know that secular governments are not always nice {Stalin}) and Osama is opposed to anything non-fundi Islamic.  Even in his recent missive to fundi-Muslims to use suicide bombings to defend Iraq he attacked Saddam.  Osama tried tto get permission from the Saudi government to go after Saddam in the early '90s and was denied.


Saddam's vested interest is in keeping Saddam alive and in power.  We have mede it more than clear that we are both willing and able to get him if we have any inclination at all to do so.  If he were to actually attack the USA he knows he would be signing his own death warrant.  Because of this, and the capabilities of our inteligence gathering, he can't risk even indirect attacks by funding terrorists.


Saddam is a dedicated foe of the Wahabists that attacked us on 9/11.

Why?

Because they want all secular Arab governments overthrown, including his.


Attacking Iraq will not incease our security, it will weaken it greatly as we confirm the fears of many (most?) Middle Eastern Muslims that we are not waging a war on terror, but rather a war on Islam.  By attacking an Arab nation that has no terrorist ties (CIA says there are no credible links between Saddam and terrorists) we would merely be confirming for them what Osama bin Laden has been telling them.  Once we have done our bit to confirm the worst to many of the fence sitters the funds and volunteer floodgates will open for Osama bin Laden's networks.


Pre-emptive strikes on a nation that does not pose any current risk to our country sets a very dangerous precedent and fundamentally breaks the accepted international standard from the post WWII period.  To do this opens up all sorts of possible actions by nations that have thus far been contained by international law.  What is to stop a country from attacking a smaller country if all it must do is state that the smaller country will be a real threat to it at some point in the future?  The USA has presented no evidence that Iraq has WMD, let alone that Iraq has any intentions to attack the USA.  What is the controling factor here?  Power?  If so, what will we do if 50 years down the line a resurgent Russia or EU decide to do something that is decidedly against our interests?  Will their power make it all fine and dandy?


Why play directly into Osama bin Laden's hands by destroying, the admittedly nasty piece of work, Saddam who is his foe and simultaneously proving to millions of Muslims (in their view at least) that Osama bin Laden was telling the truth when he stated that the USA was anti-Muslim.  We are doing his work for him.  We are diverting our attention from the WoT to a side issue and giving him what he needs to get propaganda, troops and funds.  We are being out manuvered politically by a provincial ex-Saudi billionaire.


Why drive away all of our Allies over something as minor as Saddam Hussein?  After 9/11 we had tremendous international political capital due to the sympathy other nations had for us.  In just over a year we have not only lost that political capital, we have decended to levels lower than at any time in my life.  Why?  Because we have been running around like a brat in a candy store thinking that we should get anything we want because a hornet stung us earlier.  We have turned from stopping terrorists to attacking, with little evidence, a nation that we have a long standing grudge with.

Why?  I don't see any gain here, all I see is us losing.  Sure, Saddam will be gone (dead most likely), but the world we wake in will be far more dangerous and far more hostile.  We aren't the only nation in the world and we should act like we are or that we have a universal right to do anything just because we are so powerful.  It isn't a matter of kowtowing to other nations (something we're currently demanding of them {look at the harsh reactions against France, Germany and Belgium when they didn't kowtow to us}), it is a matter of respect and diplomacy.


If we are going in we MUST have iron clad and devastating evidence of Iraqi ill intentions.  We MUST allow for the time to get this information.  Saddam isn't going anywhere.  We MUST make it absolutely clear to the world (and to American citizens) that this must be done.  This has not yet been accomplished.

[Dowding]

If you think Islamic extremists hate the West generally and the US specifically now, it's going to be a drop in the ocean compared to the depth of feeling that will be engendered after an invasion.

For me, the Israel-Palestinian conflict (which Bush has sidelined and ignored) is the biggest obstacle to world peace today. It's like a 24 hour advertisement campaign for why America is the root of all evil.

There should be an immediate effort to bring the Palestinians and Israelis to the discussion table.

[Duedel]

Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
It's also better to have an enemy you know than to have one you don't.


The real question is, "Will the removal of Hussein make the U.S. safer?"


I certainly don't think so. I do not believe he's a threat.

Very well said Sandman. The problem is that if we start a war Mr. Hussein would become a martyr - something that Mr. Bin Laden  needs to increase the hate between the islam and the western countries.

[-tronski-]

Originally posted by Duedel
Very well said Sandman. The problem is that if we start a war Mr. Hussein would become a martyr - something that Mr. Bin Laden  needs to increase the hate between the islam and the western countries.

I doubt Hussein would become anyones martyr in the arabic world, however I would think much would become of any civilian casualties especially if there are repeats of the Amiriyah bomb shelter.

 Tronsky

[Hortlund]

You people make me sick. Seriously, I have no respect whatsoever for you anti war pukes. You are a f*cking disgrace.

Hang. Do you really need for me to tell you this?
Try to recall exactly how much these guys hate us. I had forgotten about that too. Do you remember watching 9-11 on tv (or however you experienced it, you might even have been there if you live in NY) do you remember the feelings you felt realizing that those aircraft were filled with ordinary people, just like you and me...women and children. That image has haunted me since 9-11, what the inside of those aircraft must have been like.

Which brings me to the hijackers. Exactly how much do you think they hate us? Could you phantom up a scenario that would make you hijack an Iraqi airlined filled with women and children, and then crash that airliner into a Mosque or whatever? Because I cant. Personally I cannot understand how a person can be capable of such hate. Even if I had OBL himself at my mercy, I would shoot him, sure, but not his 5yr old daughter.

Since 9-11, most people have forgotten alot about what they felt when 9-11 happened. After that we got to watch the war in Afghanistan, where the frightful terrorists was transformed into pathetic small running dots on a videoscreen as the LBUs came zooming down at them. Then we get to watch pictures of Guantanamo bay prisoners. They are not dangerous, heck they are pathetic at best. We have been lulled into a false sense of security.

Sometimes it is good to be reminded exactly who we are fighting and why.


Why there is a war (it takes a while to load, but it is well worth it):
http://www.politicsandprotest.org/



Why Iraq is a target:
Iraqi WMD

Some details from the page:
Documented Iraqi Use of Chemical Weapons, Number is fatalities only.
 
Aug 1983 Hajj Umran Mustard fewer than 100   Iranians/Kurds
Oct-Nov 1983 Panjwin Mustard 3,000 Iranian/Kurds
Feb-Mar 1984 Majnoon Island Mustard 2,500 Iranians
Mar 1984 al-Basrah Tabun 50 to 100 Iranians
Mar 1985 Hawizah Marsh Mustard/Tabun 3,000 Iranians
Feb 1986 al-Faw Mustard/Tabun 8,000 to 10,000 Iranians
Dec 1986 Umm ar Rasas Mustard thousands Iranians
Apr 1987 al-Basrah Mustard/Tabun 5,000 Iranians
Oct 1987 Sumar/Mehran Mustard/nerve agents 3,000 Iranians
Mar 1988 Halabjah Mustard/nerve agents hundreds Iranians/Kurds


Iraqi-Acknowledged Open-Air Testing of Biological Weapons
 
Location-Date Agent Munition
Al Muhammadiyat – Mar 1988 Bacillus subtilis[5] 250-gauge bomb (cap. 65 liters)
Al Muhammadiyat – Mar 1988 Botulinum toxin 250-gauge bomb (cap. 65 liters)
Al Muhammadiyat – Nov 1989 Bacillus subtilis 122mm rocket (cap. 8 liters)
Al Muhammadiyat – Nov 1989 Botulinum toxin   122mm rocket (cap. 8 liters)
Al Muhammadiyat – Nov 1989 Aflatoxin 122mm rocket (cap. 8 liters)
Khan Bani Saad – Aug 1988 Bacillus subtilis aerosol generator – Mi-2 helicopter with modified agricultural spray equipment
Al Muhammadiyat – Dec 1989 Bacillus subtilis R-400 bomb (cap. 85 liters)
Al Muhammadiyat – Nov 1989 Botulinum toxin R-400 bomb (cap. 85 liters)
Al Muhammadiyat – Nov 1989 Aflatoxin R-400 bomb (cap. 85 liters)
Jurf al-Sakr Firing Range – Sep 1989 Ricin 155mm artillery shell (cap. 3 liters)
Abu Obeydi Airfield – Dec 1990 Water Modified Mirage F1 drop-tank (cap. 2,200 liters)
Abu Obeydi Airfield – Dec 1990 Water/potassium permanganate Modified Mirage F1 drop-tank (cap. 2,200 liters)
Abu Obeydi Airfield – Jan 1991 Water/glycerine Modified Mirage F1 drop-tank (cap. 2,200 liters)
Abu Obeydi Airfield – Jan 1991 Bacillus subtilis/Glycerine Modified Mirage F1 drop-tank (cap. 2,200 liters)

[lord dolf vader]

hortland that made no sense at all

"Try to recall exactly how much these guys hate us. I had forgotten about that too. Do you remember watching 9-11"

hortland

did you skip the part about iraq not being the party that did 9/11. ?  or that the party that did 9/11  hates and dispises saddam more that we do.


then you launch into a patriotic song  and danch about how we have forgoten our hate for them ( the iraqis that didnt do it?) so you make a ridiculus  statment and then go off on a sill tangent.


almost delusional dude.

[Hortlund]

As I said, you anti war pukes make me sick with your incredible desire to put your head in the sand and wish your problems away. Riddle me this amazinhunk:

Is Saddam capable of using WMD's against his enemies?

Is the US the enemy of Saddam?

Did OBL support Iraq, and call for his minions to attack US targets in support of Iraq in his latest speech?

Do you think Saddam hates the US any less than OBL does?

Does Iraq support, finance and arm terrorists? (there are other terrorist organizations than AlQueida you know)

Why are you trying to make a difference between Al Queida and Iraq just because they dont like eachother. They have a common enemy now, they are both fundamental moslem extremists who basically wants to kill us all, and Iraq is used as a safehaven for Al Queida.