O+ organs needed

[miko2d]

Thanks for the effort, Nifty, but no. A person signing a donor concent on their driver licenses have about the same chance to have "tainted"organs - by the time they die - as any random chap. All transplant tissues are tested as thoroughly as possible no matter where they come from.
 Even if a few more tainted organs occasionally come through the screening due to the "opt-out" policy, that would hardly warrant being called "horrible consequences". After all, questionable people donate blood (which is a liquid organ) for money and many of them are sick. Blood is someimes tained and people get hepatitis or HIV from it occasionally but it's not a grave concern for society in general.

 Try again or watch this thread - I will post an obvious answer in a few hours if no one thinks of it.

 miko

[SlapShot]

She received new transplants sometime yesterday. The donor is anonomous at this point, but specifically requested the donated organs go to this girl.

The rest is in God's hands now ...

[UserName]

Originally posted by miko2d

 Try again or watch this thread - I will post an obvious answer in a few hours if no one thinks of it.

 miko

The would-be donor's family are actually closet pagans, and they need his organs in order to preform some type of pagan resurrection ritual?

Or in their rush they take out organs from a person who could have lived otherwise?

[bounder]

Originally posted by miko2d
bounder: There was much talk of making the UK scheme an opt out, rather than opt in system, which I broadly supported?
Every day tens of thousands of perfectly good organs are left in the corpse and buried right along with them.

 You support an "opt-out" scheme? Have you ever considered what kind of hell would unfold if such a scheme was ever implemented?
 The intent to abandon private ownership of internal organs may be good but the unintended consequences...

 miko

Private ownership of organs is fine, but after you've croaked you are no longer around to 'own' them.

I carry a donor card, but even that means my next of kin still have to be contacted, it merely shows a willingness. By the time my next of kin have been contacted, its often too late and the organs are useless.

There are problems with an opt out system, I agree, but not insurmountable ones IMO.

Of course we've all read COMA.....

I hope she makes it.

[miko2d]

bounder: Private ownership of organs is fine, but after you've croaked you are no longer around to 'own' them.

 As with any of your other posessions. Try to go through the pockets of the accident victim as see where it gets you. The property of the deceased person is disposed of according to his will and/or long-existing laws/traditions of inheritance.
 If grabbing my heart could help some poor sod, imagine how much good could come from auctioning my house and using the proceeds for good deeds! Oh, wait - we already have "the death tax"...

 Anyway, we are straying from my more important question. The public ownership of dead organs is related to it but not directly - just as public ownership of any resource inevitably leads to the "tragedy of the commons" - misuse, corruption and sometimes horrific abuses of the system.

 Again, I would not call "surmauntable" problems "hell" or "horrible consequences" - I am talking about a very fundamental problem. Any more takers?

 miko

[hawk220]

Miko2d

The intent to abandon private ownership of internal organs may be good but the unintended consequences...

ok, here's what I was thinking you said/meant:  

If a person's organs can become public BEFORE his death..such as in case of brain death, coma or the like and we say its ok to take them..that's a slippery slope that could lead to really messed up practices..

I guess I only was referring to AFTER death

[Chairboy]

News flash:
Replacement organs found for girl

http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,6016392%5E1702,00.html

[miko2d]

OK - since Hawk replied and did not hit the main target - though the point of slippery slope is valid too - I will post the answer.

 Let's look again at bounder's "opt-out" or "public ownership" premise: "you've croaked you are no longer around to 'own' them".

 So you will have a nice system "one body - one set of organs". The body has to die violent death, of course - old and sick are rarely usefull.
 If one needs an organ transplant now, one has to go beg the relatives of recently deceased or pray for someone to die. But with the new policy, as long as there is a supply of bodies, there is a supply of organs. And that supply can surely be manipulated.

 People do all kinds of things for their loved ones and children - from starting fistfights at the soccer games to hiring a hitmen because of the cheer-leader squad.

 Hawk, assuming you have a child, imagine that instead of just praying for your daughter to die in a terrible accident, some distraught parent in need of a transplant for his child would cut the brakes on her school bus  to ensure some fresh bodies? How about putting a piece of steel on the railroad track? Provoking a panic and stampede in a disco?

 Imagine a doctor in an emergency room paid a whole lot of money to say "sorry, your daughter cannot be saved" while she really could once he sees her blood type?

 How about having to guard your blood type as dear life becasue someone may arrange "an accident" for you or yours - and even drive a victim to the nearest hospital where a relative or a buyer is expecting a transplant? Especially if you are young and healthy?

 Those are only the things that I would consider doing for my child that I would not mind society preventing me and others from doing. And it's not a hypocricy on my part.
 In war, it is in everyone's personal interests to slack off but if all do so, the war is lost. So before the war, when risks are known but exact dangers to individuals are not, we adopt a system where a slacker is punished so severely that it pays him to stay and fight rather than desert. Even if that slaker happens to be oneself.
 If my child needed an organ transplant right now, I would vote for "opt-out" policy or worse. While he does not - and hopefully never will - I will sigh my own organ donor card and carry my blood donor card (with blood type indicated) next to it to speed up the processing - but vote against such an atrocious system. I do not want to ever be tempted.
 If such system is imposed, I would make sure that my family and all my friends opt out and make that fact widely known to everybody. Even that would not prevent mass-murder though...

 Have you seen an exposee on TV of dozens of medical workers killing scores of patients just to ease the workload or get off the shift in time or just for kicks - no money offered? What if they were offered and a lot of it?

 Have you heard about people in US drugged, kidnapped and deprived of one or both of their kidneys? The missing persons? The missing persons and children in third world countries of whom no one keeps track? How many went into the illicit organ transplant schemes? There is a considerable international organ traffiking tracked by Interpol. There are a lot of bad people out there ready to jump on any opportunity you present to them.

 The transplant technology is improving rapidly while the share of population in need of transplants constantly grows - due to elimination of natual selection through dieing out of weaklings, substance abuse, chemicals in the environmemt, increased longevity, increase in wealth, etc. The demand would grow and if the opportunity to increase supply presented itself - the hell would break lose.

 miko

[Nifty]

I guess that answer is obvious only to the malicious.

[miko2d]

Nifty: I guess that answer is obvious only to the malicious.

 Malicious? Right, let's start personal offences...

 The answer is obvious to anyone who can think ahead and read history, economy or even science fiction or newspapers. Or watch TV. Or look around in the real world for a moment.

 When you have demand and you create a market, you will have suppy, whether you want it or not.
 It works everywhere - in drug trade, organ traffiking, alcohol bootlegging, immigrant smuggling, prostitution, gambling, etc.

 Naive/innocent people like you thought enacting prohibition would stop alcohol consumption, outlawing drugs will not cause dealers pushing drugs in school, intrducing wild insurance schemes would not cause widespread crookery and abuse, etc. - because you cannot think what malicious people would do.

 Guess what - the first responcibility of the State is to protect us from malicious people, so the politicians are better learn how malicious people think and operate.

 If you want a state to remove organs from unwilling victims for your use, why don't you emigrate to China or just visit. They farm prison inmates for parts. You can even go there and select a specimen you like, check teeth, etc, than have him take the immunity shots and get slaughtered at your convenience. Not too expencive in our money, you sick self-righteous ghoul.
 How is that for name-calling?

 P.S. Hoping in advance that you will reconsider caling me malicious, I admit that my name calling above was largely a rhetoric trick for demonstration purposes only. Not everyone disagreeing with one's position is inherently evil. I do not really believe you wish death on my children to get your paws on their organs. You just did not think that far. I hope you do now.

 miko

[JimC]

I am a liver transplant candidate. Why, when, and how are meaningless right? I never thought about killing someone to get a liver, it just really never crossed my mind, what did cross my mind was this...If the call comes and they have a liver for me, what if it would work for someone else too? And what if that someone else was a kid? (I'm 42, so "kid" would include anyone under 30 say.)
The stats say:

On 06/30/02,     # of people waiting for livers = 17,379

Total transplants during year ending 6/30/02 =   5,261

Number of patients who died while
on the waitlist during year ending 6/30/02      =  1,861

So..lots of folks waiting..should I take a liver or give it to someone yonger?
You know, the longer I have to think about it (I'v been on the list over 6 months now), the easer it becomes to say "I'll pass, give it to someone else" .
I been here 42 years, Now I realy don't have a death wish, but.. thats long enough for me if god sees fit for me to go, maybe things would be a little better on the other side, I really don't see how they could be worse than here on planet earth.
Think about it, we got lawyers, war, taxes, famon, lawyers, earthquakes, floods, lawyers, governments, disease, cancer, doctors, lawyers, organized religion and worst of all.....LAWYERS!

If anyone is interested in the FACTS...go here....http://www.ustransplant.org/  

Good Day!
JimC

[hawk220]

Miko

 I thought you were just ranting at first, but that is a really interesting view..I know that in many parts of the world..Eastern Europe, South America..the real poor toejamholes..that folks sell their kidneys and those of their children for very small amounts of money in order to buy food. I'd like to think that that wouldn't happen in an advanced civilization like we have in the West, but who knows? While cutting the brake lines of a school bus seems rather overdramatic, people do some sick toejam.

My views are obviously tainted to one side..I WANT someone with my blood type to plow into a tree. As I'm typing right now, I am on dialysis with two big mother needles sticking out of my arm and all the blood in my body being drawn out, filtered, and returned, so anything that brings about the end of this I'm in favor of.

[hawk220]

big to you JimC

you liver guys get my utmost respect for your bravery, moxie, and courage under the most trying of life's experiences. Us kidney guys at least have a machine that keeps us pretty much even keeled while we wait for our pagers to go off. Liver guys don't.

the best of luck to you

[miko2d]

Right.

 Not only "civilisation" is a very thin veneer even in moder times  - as the deplorable behaviour of very civilised germans in the 40s, ugoslavs and former soviets in the 90s shows - but a person otherwise balanced, selfless and rational can undergo a radical change in character when stricken by grief and anxiety for his life and especially that of his children.
 Depression is believed to be a clinical condition (rather than a character flaw) but it can strike anyone, more or less, and it would be silly to expect from a person affected with it - who does not much care about his/her own life - to care much about the lifes of unrelated people, let alone laws and customs.
 Especially if some scoundrel with no concience offers him a back-door transplant operation and all that is required is not to ask many questions.

 I surely hope you guys are OK.

 miko

[Hawklore]

Originally posted by JimC
I am a liver transplant candidate. Why, when, and how are meaningless right? I never thought about killing someone to get a liver, it just really never crossed my mind, what did cross my mind was this...If the call comes and they have a liver for me, what if it would work for someone else too? And what if that someone else was a kid? (I'm 42, so "kid" would include anyone under 30 say.)
The stats say:

On 06/30/02,     # of people waiting for livers = 17,379

Total transplants during year ending 6/30/02 =   5,261

Number of patients who died while
on the waitlist during year ending 6/30/02      =  1,861

So..lots of folks waiting..should I take a liver or give it to someone yonger?
You know, the longer I have to think about it (I'v been on the list over 6 months now), the easer it becomes to say "I'll pass, give it to someone else" .
I been here 42 years, Now I realy don't have a death wish, but.. thats long enough for me if god sees fit for me to go, maybe things would be a little better on the other side, I really don't see how they could be worse than here on planet earth.
Think about it, we got lawyers, war, taxes, famon, lawyers, earthquakes, floods, lawyers, governments, disease, cancer, doctors, lawyers, organized religion and worst of all.....LAWYERS!

If anyone is interested in the FACTS...go here....http://www.ustransplant.org/  

Good Day!
JimC

Wow, JimC thats very unselfish of you, good luck!



( Also I heard my dad say that the girl got a hear transplant done with the correct blood type? This true? )