Pyro..a bit more poop on this please

[blkmgc]

You can be a bomber pilot in ToD. ToD will be a much more realistic experience for bomber pilots because they will get to fly as part of a large bomber group. Using A.I. bombers allows us to field more bombers and maintain a more realistic fighter/bomber ratio. It also insures that missions always run on schedule and do what is intended.

  I've reread this a number of times, and it leaves a few questions in the mind of this dedicated bomber pilot as to the roll that bombers will play in AHII.

 Are all of the bomber missions going to be pivotal on ai, or are there going to be some left to bomb groups? Are ai going to be hard to fly with, or are they going to be able to be player controlled when a human gets in with a "box"? I'm slowly realizing that there are very few dedicated bomb groups in AH as it is, but if the number of bombgroups should happen to increase, can the number of ai be adjusted for this or are they there for good?

Respectfully,

 blkmgc

[Keez]

Ofcourse I dont know anything more than you do, and all I can do is speculate.... But I would guess that he means something like this...

I think that all bombermissions will have an "AI core". And player bombers can join these AI formations by just forming up and following their lead. Why? Because there is going to be a counter-mission for the LuftWaffe to join ofcourse. What if this counter-mission sends the german fighters to a particulair spot on the map to intercept the bombers, but the bombers wont pass through there because they decided to take another route? That wouldnt be fun for the LW players. So there is always a group of AI planes that makes sure the bombers get to the right place at the right time for the LuftWeenies to have something to do as well. This is why you cant leave buff formations to players completely in AHII I think.

[Revvin]

Keez> Perhaps the arena will be a bit more dynamic than a mission being launched with a preset route and an oppossing mission being launched with that route known. Perhaps what will happen is there wil lbe preset missions but also ones launched reacting on certain triggers such as radar being triggered at airfields so that if a bomber formation did detour from the preset course it would still be picked up on radar at another field and a mission immediately launched either totally AI or as a way to constantly have missions ready to go to keep the waiting time down.

[blkmgc]

cc Keez. In that regard I was just wondering if all of the missions are going to be ai involved,or are we (as a RL bomb group) would be able to select a mission , maybe from the GUI, and have it left alone by the ai. I suppose this would depend on the numbers of human pilots involved, and that would be fine, but if a group of say 15 live bomber pilots go after a target there would be no need for ai to do the same job. Hehe..although a bomber stream made up of as many bombers as possible would be pretty cool.

blkmgc

[Keez]

BlkMgc... You're right that when 15 human pilots set out to bomb something, AI wouldnt be needed for numbers anymore. But letting the players decide how fast, how high and most important where to fly is ofcourse quite a risc assuming the mission system is as static as I described it above. I, as a regular buffer, wouldn't mind at all to just "follow the leader" even if it's AI. Hell it cant be much more dangerous than the one I follow these days .

Revvin... What you describe sounds nice, but do you think it can be done? I can imagine a squadron of allied fighters takes off to escorts bombers. Not just a squadron as in they're flying this mission together, but a regular AH squadron as well. What if the leader decides "We're going to cut the corner here big time" or something, and they fly past an enemy field... A german mission should up? What about two squaddies who have both been shot up badly in a dogfight and are running home, flying past enemy fields they would otherwise not have passes... Should a german mission up? Or what about the regular newbie who just takes off with the rest of his mission, gets lost and flies over LW territory... Should a mission up?

I think a more dynamical system would be quite complex to actually get done Revvin. It's likely to always have flaws no matter what you do. That's what I think anyways.

[Fariz]

Nope Keez, it is not a decisive consideration. You can attain same results by setting number of "waypoints" for buffs, which include some coordinates and alt. If human formation will not go thru the point +- some miles and +- some alt, it would be mission fail.

Main reason for ai buffs is inability to get enough people in buffs to create big buffs missions. In short time it will be 1 buffs pilot for each 10 fighter pilots, and that would ruin the whole idea. So they need some AI bombers to keep it around 1:1 with fighters. If someone will want to replace one of bomber pilots, fine. If not, it still be AI to fly them, so axis fighters will have something to shoot at, and allies will have something to escort.

My concern is AI gunners. If they will be too acurate, attacking buffs will be too risky to be fun. If they will be not accurate enough one experienced axis pilot would bring home 5-7 kills each mission... It is not easy to ballance that thing, and make it "humanized" enough.

[blkmgc]

That sounds a bit gamey to me
 Fariz. Would you really want to go after bombers knowing at what alt and position they would be at any given time? Where is the challenge in that!?

  The participation of bomber pilots here is going to be set by the way that bombers (and thier rolls) are presented from the get go. You can bet that I will definately not fly a set flight plan at a pre-determined schedule. They sure as anything did not do this in the war. And dedicated bomber pilots are not here paying thier 14.95 a month to be flying drone fighter targets.

 As far as ai gunners,hate to break it to ya, the b17 and b24 had many many 50 cals simultaneously tracking fighters from many many ships in a tight formation.The 8th and the 15th downed a lot of fighters.As a matter of fact, most of the vets I've talked with said thier biggest fear was ack. If a fighter flys up to the 6 and parks less than 500 yards, he should have the life expectancy of about 30 seconds....maybe less.Although I have seen some very well set up realistic slashing attacks.

 Just think Keez, 15 human pilots with 2 ai each..45 bombers.  

blkmgc

[hitech]

blkmgc, flight plans are a must to make the game work. And also I belive all bomber missions were flown per a flight plan. How else could you hope to have fighters mate up with you after take off.

keez has hit apon our basic vission of the game. With out dedicated flight times and routes you can not devise fun defensive missions. For instance a single 500 plane bomber raid might have 3 or 4 missions running against it at different times.

If your on a defensive air patrol mission you have to be assured of a chance to intercept the bombers. you might not know excatly where or when they will show up, but you will know they will be some where in the patrol area durring your mission time.

HiTech

[blkmgc]

I agree that flight plans are a must...hehe , have spent hours putting those together myself.I just dont think that those plans should be known to anyone but to those who are flying the mission including the escorts. The ai are going to add emmensely to the defensive missions as an opposing force,granted, but what is going to be left for the human bomber squads to do?Are there going to be selectable strategic targets available for the human squads to go after that will affect the direction of the battles?

  I have no problem with encountering cons, as there are many effective tactics that a bomber squad can do to protect themselves and throw off an attack.But ,with the numbers that are usually online, if say 250 out of 500 are hunting bombers in a "kinda" known location/route it takes away some of the inflight defences (and any element of surprize) that we use if we have to fly with the ai bomber stream...as cool as it would be.

    Mission success to me is planning a mission, executing it with a fine bunch of pilots who pride themselves with thier formation and bombing skills and then having a chance to make it home...even if it takes hours.Its kinda the glue (and challenge)which holds large bombgroups together.But to some , score is thier mark of success. And also a way to benchmark the proficiency and effectiveness of thier efforts...and justifyably so given the amount of work involved with a successful mission. This is why I was curious to the availbility of non ai targets.

  I guess generally speaking,it would be great to have creditable targets that a group of human bomber pilots can pick out and go after, which will also make the opposing side have to guess a bit.It would let us both; determine the outcome of any engagement with cons that we might encounter,and put our skills to the test.



blkmgc

[Elfie]

Originally posted by blkmgc

  The participation of bomber pilots here is going to be set by the way that bombers (and thier rolls) are presented from the get go. You can bet that I will definately not fly a set flight plan at a pre-determined schedule. They sure as anything did not do this in the war. And dedicated bomber pilots are not here paying thier 14.95 a month to be flying drone fighter targets.

blkmgc

Erich Hartmann was assigned to Romania briefly during the war. He (and the rest of the Germans) were amazed at the daily timing of the bomber raids. They came in the same time, day after day, at the same altitudes. It was very easy to find the American bombers and their escorts....shooting them down was another story however

And it's not like the German's didn't have radar

Elfie
Armageddon Pile-it

HiTech....Give us Napalm darnit!!