Andy Bush, Please read......

[Udie]

Andy,

 I loved your BnZ articles. I have a small request.  Would it be possible for you to write a similar BnZ article, but include wingman tactics?

 I am lucky enough to have a dedicated wingman, BERSERKR.  He's awesome and has saved my butt many many times. One problem I've always had is keeping him safe while manuvering.  On many occasions I have, with him following me in my 5:00 or 7:00 slot,  turned him right on to the path of a bogie. Giving the bogie an easy kill of my wingmate.

 It would be great if you could write an article about wingman tactics or something.  I'll buy you a beer or 9 at the AH con    Hopefuly somebody from your site will be at the AH con  

Thnx!

Udie

[Andy Bush]

Hi Udie

Funny you should ask that!

Part 3 to the BnZ series was supposed to include just such a discussion...but I got garbage mouth so bad that I decided to put it into a separate piece!

Someone mentioned Double Attack in the other thread. When this type of maneuvering first was introduced, it was a major departure from standard ACM concepts in that the technique freed up the wingman to fly his own BFM instead of being tied to the leader.

This next article will try to explain how to do this in a sim. So far, it's proven to be a little tougher than I had originally thought.

Not unsurprisingly, the fly in the ointment here once again is the inability of a sim's viewing system to keep up with the demands of the maneuver.

At the bottom of the problem is the need for each pilot to keep both his wingman and the bandit in view...and do this in a manner that provides the overall three dimensional SA needed to maneuver effectively.

'Effectively' in this sense means flying good BFM on the bandit without running into your wingman! This isn't meant as a funny. I am talking about the two attackers keeping their flight paths separate and far enough apart so that they can keep pressure on the bandit all the time.

This is tough to do with the views that we have. Particularly if we only have snap views. Padlock is a little better, especially if the padlock system allows the pilot to padlock both the bandit and his wingman. Even in external, the field of view is so narrow that flying good 2vX tactics is hard to achieve.

What I'll do in this article is describe an offensive 2v1 flown using typical 'Double Attack' tactics. This will be similar to the HnC technique described in Part 3. I'll include some simple radio calls that could be used by two simmers using a comm program like RW.

Stay tuned!

Andy

[vadr]

Can't wait.

As I mentioned in the other thread, I teach a lot of Double-Attack to my pilots. In my experience, the 2 most difficult parts are keeping the bandit and the wing in sight (as Andy says) and the timing of the attacks. There is a 'rhythm' to this stuff that can only be aquired by practice, practice and more practice.

We have some basic comm procedures down as well, but I'm sure those will improve after reading Andy's article.

Great stuff.

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Vadr
III/JG 2 'Richthofen'

[Andy Bush]

Vadr

You are so right...timing is the key...and that is what I'm finding hard to describe in sim viewing system terms.

I'd like to see your group's comm plan. If you can send it to me, I'll try to get it into the article along with some appropriate star billing!

I'm at:  alfakilo@doitnow.com

Andy

[easymo]

Gang banging 101  

[vadr]

hehe. Yep, sure is. Good for a 12-1 K/D ratio for my unit in the current S3 Scenario too  

Andy, I sent you some stuff. Lemme know if you don't get it.

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Vadr
III/JG 2 'Richthofen'

[Lephturn]

I've always found that the tough part wasn't keeping your wingy in view, but knowing where he will be.  No padlock or any other view system will solve this, only practice with a regular wingy can.  Generally the limitation is the pilots IMHO.  I've seen the Pigs run loose duece energy fights we call "the squirrel cage" to devastating effect in different sims, view system independent, which leads me to believe it's the pilots that make the difference.  In my opinion if you have to look to see where your wingy is, you are already in trouble.  Generally a practiced wing pair with good communications makes actually watching your wingman almost unnecessary.  Because it is so dificult to track two targets at once, we rely on our eyes for the bad guy, and things like planning and the radio for our wingy.  When flying with a wingy, things like engagement planning and effective, pre-discussed communications play a big part in your combat effectiveness.

I personally find padlocks blow my SA out of the water, I have a harder time orienting myself to my plane's vector with a padlock, hence judging energy states is much more difficult.  I find it much easier with a snap view system.  I know other pilots find the reverse is true.  Such is life.

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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
 http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/
 

"MY P-47 is a pretty good ship
And she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip
I was thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip
Always got me through so far
Well they can ship me all over this great big world
But I'll never find nothing like my North End girl
I'm taking her home with me one day, sir
Soon as we win this war"
 - Steve Earl

[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 06-16-2000).]

[Andy Bush]

Lephturn

I appreciate your point...but if you have a moment, please read this account of a 2v1 where two guys relied a little too much on 'knowing where everyone is supposed to be'.
 http://www.combatsim.com/htm/jan99/andy1.htm  

Andy

[vadr]

Well, I appreciate BOTH points, but I'm going to take the middle of the road here.

The lesson in the article Andy points to is self-evident, but I wonder if it applies *to the same extent* in our virtual combat environment.

Let's face it; collision with a friendly is not something that we have to worry about, at least not in Aces High and it's distant cousin Warbirds.

There is still killshooter (or even the lack of it), but when both engaged and supporting pilot are both closing to a firing position at the same time, that's the result of a lot of serious breakdowns, not just a loss of visual contact with the wing/lead.

I tend to side with lepthurn that the key to 2 vs 1 BFM and ACM lies in how much practice the two pilots have with each other. Losing visual on the wing in the virtual environment is just not as serious as it is in Real Life, IMHO.

The real lesson to me is the necessity of clear, concise communication between the engaged elements.

PS - My experience with padlock, while limited, is similar to lepthurn's: It blows more of my SA (and my attitude awareness) than it gains.


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Vadr
III/JG 2 'Richthofen'

[This message has been edited by vadr (edited 06-16-2000).]

[Lephturn]

Great article.  I think it nicely illustrates my point that good radio comms and practiced disciplined flight elements are the key to any wing engagement.

I noticed this passage:
"At this point, the F-5 is approaching the wingman from the front and above. The wingman is in a steep right bank, having pulled max g to get the F-5 on his nose. He is padlocked on the F-5. The F-5 is inverted watching the wingman."

Interesting the use of the word "padlock", and an artificial padlock in a game would increase the likelyhood of just such a collission.  That said, the error here was not one of losing sight, but one of bad radio comms.  While the free fighter must try to keep both the enemy and his wingman in sight, this is not always possible.  Loss of sight will happen in any wing engagement, and that's why using radio comms to fill in the blanks is so important.  Any type of padlock feature only makes this more difficult, as the padlock must focus on either the bandit, or your wingman.  Snap views are the best way to keep both in sight, because you the pilot can do a much better job of tracking both planes than an AI padlock could.  In the article, the failure was a communications and discipline error, not a loss of sight problem.

The article highlighted the need for good radio coms.  In Aces High, this need is also great, but the consequences are much less due to no friendly collisions, and big icons that make friendly fire accidents a non-issue.  IMHO, this just increases the importance of good radio coms and practiced flight leads.



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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
 http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/


"MY P-47 is a pretty good ship
And she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip
I was thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip
Always got me through so far
Well they can ship me all over this great big world
But I'll never find nothing like my North End girl
I'm taking her home with me one day, sir
Soon as we win this war"
 - Steve Earl

[SIFTER]

Yes help him Andy,please help him?
  I have small children who need there daddy to come home! "Yes Mrs. Berserkr, he was a fine man and one hell of a pilot. One minute he was clearing my six, and after my fifth kill I looked back and he was gone! <sniff> <sniff> "Daddy where are you?!"   One of the ways to learn to be the best is to fly wingman for the best. It worked in real life and it works in SIM's.  
                          Berserkr

I look forward to that article! Here's some stuff to check out while we wait:http://www.wlvrn.com/hanger/other.html