Aircraft Design Competition

[Beaz]

I know this is probably rather far fetched but just hear me out.

I was reading an extract from the WB book recently that implied that when WB first started Pyro was allowed to "play" with the aircraft ascii files and essentially prat around with the flight model during the alpha testing period.

Anyway this got me thinking about allowing the AH "community" to design the flight models to be verified by HT and Pyro of course before inclusion in the game... sort of like having a design competition. They would need to release the design paramaters of course. HT and Pyro would come along and say "hey guys... after considerable thought we have decided that the sim needs an Me 410... go design us one"... the best and most accurate flight model from a team wins the design competition.

Now thats what I would call using the "community" to do the work for you   There has got to be a few hundred tallented people out there willing to bash out a flight model in their spare time. You would have all the aircraft you require in the shortest possible timeframe  

Yeah I know... crazy... Ok... blow me out the water  

Regards

Daren

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Beaz
249 Squadron RAF "Gold Coast"
"With Fists and Heels"
Part of the Tangmere Wing

[Jochen]

 

HT and Pyro would come along and say "hey guys... after considerable thought we have decided that the sim needs an Me 410... go design us one"... the best and most accurate flight model from a team wins the design competition.

Well, if we just had enough info about real planes. I bet even real developers have some difficulty to get accurate enough info about different planes.

I think Spifires and Mustangs could be really easy planes to get accurate info since many are still airworthy. But Fw 190A and Fw 190D might be little different case alltogether...

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Obfr. jochen 'Stern von Afrika' 2./ Jagdgeschwader 27 'Afrika'

[Sascha JG 77]

Hopefully once "Flug Werk GmbH" finish their 190 A-8 we' ll get some "hard data" on the performance of that plane. They claim that they have 99% of the original blueprints, so the 190s they build should be rather accurate.
 

If anyone provides me with the funds for the plane and a pilot's license ($ 509.000) I ll gladly buy one and do the evaluation myself.      
 http://www.flugwerk.de/Page3.html

Sascha JG 77 "Herz As!"



[This message has been edited by Sascha JG 77 (edited 08-11-1999).]

[Vermillion]

Actually I think it is an excellent idea.

I'm sure that Pyro will tell us its way too complicated, but I bet he might be pleasently suprised.

There are many people out there in these games that are Engineers, computer professionals, Graphic Artists, and real pilots.

Me, Im an Engineer with about 5 years experience putting together Air Pollution Dispersion computer models for the government, on Unix systems. Same kinda of situation, gather your data, adjust thousands of variables to produce what is "believeable" results, and then test the hell out of your project.  

Modeling airflow over a wing surface can't be too different from modeling airflow over a complex mountainous terrain area. Just a matter of scale  

So sign me up Beaz, we can start the first player group to assist in aircraft modeling  



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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), *MOL*, Men of Leisure, Goldlandia
AW's: (verm) ACCS, Aerial Crowd Control Services, Cland

[Drex]

I'm sure Pyro would love the help    

This is what doug loves to do.  I was ignorant to the amount of work until he started working on the Ki84.  Just never paid attention until then.

He would come into the arena fly with the unfinished -84 and fight for about 20 minutes
then log for an hour.  Then log back in
and fight for a bit testing all the new and
existing tweeks on the flight model.  This
went on for weeks.  I don't pretend to know
what all he does for a flight model, but one
thing I have observed is that he will fly in the arena with a new plane to test playability, against all kinds of odds, advantages, disadvantages, and many other situations that arise that influence the end result of the planes characteristics, but still with the historical integrity that mirrors its real world counterpart. This is something that doesnt have a numerical value to insert. That is something
that outside players won't be able to do.  tweeking for playability is why PYRO is at the helm.  He's not just a researcher who plugs in data...Its the tweek and the feel that is master, and so is he.

So by all means send him data, but its like a painted picture.  You don't want to finish
someone elses artwork.  It just doesn't look right.


Drex

I just fly em'


[This message has been edited by Drex (edited 08-11-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Drex (edited 08-11-1999).]

[bod]

Excellent idea.

The best part is that if several hundreds of people were searching for hard info and facts, the stack of data would be huge, and much larger than if only one single person is searching.

If pyro has to "tweak" the model in the end for playability reasons, so what.

However, to make it practical we would need some kind of "Airplane editor" to plot and log all flight data (velocity, g etc.) when changing/trying parameters.


Bod

[Pyro]

This is something that sounds good in theory but is a different story in practice.  Aside from opening a number of Pandora's boxes, the effort saved really wouldn't be much if any.  The reason is that it is not real difficult to do the models, it's just real difficult to learn how to do the models.  

The AH flight engine was designed with a lot of hindsight.  Dale and I really sat down and went over all the things we wanted it to do and how to implement them from both his standpoint of having to write it and mine of having to use it.  

The result is a pretty complicated engine in terms of all the forces and effects that are in it.  There's so much stuff to account for that it's pretty difficult to get it all in balance.  I thought this would be a cakewalk, but I'm still trying to get over the learning curve and I've got a long way to go.

If players can dig up any information, that would be extremely helpful and welcome.



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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations

[Downtown]

The P-40 flown in China/Burma/India/Thailand by the AVG had green spinners, and a Flying tiger on the side.

Okay I know you want real data.

I have a couple books on the P-40 that are readily available at Media Play/Barnes Nobles/Etc.

I have one from Japan, that I only look at the pictures, of course when my wife isn't around.

I doubt I can provide you with any data that you can't easily get yourself.  Though try
 http://www.p-40.com

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"I could feel the 20MM Cannon impacting behind me so I made myself small behind the pilot armor" Charlie Bond AVG

[Jochen]

 

I don't pretend to know
what all he does for a flight model, but one
thing I have observed is that he will fly in the arena with a new plane to test playability, against all kinds of odds, advantages, disadvantages, and many other situations that arise that influence the end result of the planes characteristics, but still with the historical integrity that mirrors its real world counterpart. This is something that doesnt have a numerical value to insert. That is something
that outside players won't be able to do. tweeking for playability is why PYRO is at the helm. He's not just a researcher who plugs in data...Its the tweek and the feel that is master, and so is he.

Hmmm, tweaking? So FM's will be slightly up or downtuned to improve general playability?

Heh, I really hope HTCI Staff likes to fly Luftwaffe planes  

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Obfr. jochen 'Stern von Afrika' 2./ Jagdgeschwader 27 'Afrika'

[leonid]

Actually, I think it would be better to let Pyro do it.  Not because I think he needs to be buried in data, but for a couple reasons:

1. The effects will be measured by a single standard.  Especially when the values are one of 'feel', being based off testpilot reports, or whatnot, this is important.  My version of "feels heavy" will probably be different from another person's perception.

2. Which brings me to the belief that flight models are a mix of hard data and 'correct perception, or feel'.  Hard data make the bulk of a flight model, but the 'feel' part is the fine tuning.  As Pyro's Yak-3 proves, Pyro is a master at combining the two.

[bod]

Leonid, with all respect: One test pilot version of "feel heavy" is also very different from another test pilot's perception.   Feel heavy compared to what?

What we are getting is not wrong, but it is not correct either. We are getting Pyro's version.

This could very probably be the best thing, since he makes them all, and they would be *somewhat* correct relative to each other (if one is wrong, then it is very probable that some others also are wrong -principle). However, i still think the idea is excellent. 100 heads can do a lot more than just one, and they would do it for free  


But:  

I thought this would be a cakewalk, but I'm still trying to get over the learning curve and I've got a long way to go.

Does this by any chanse mean any delayes in the free beta ????


Bod